# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1161 "2011-02-18T11:41:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Kill them all, and let Allah sort them out. Or rather, suspect them all and let the authorities sort them out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1162 "2011-02-18T15:14:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What you seem to not comprehend is that there really are people who want to kill us. No, I get it, I just don’t think that painting a religion practiced by a billion people as a religion that whips raped children to death is warranted and I think it displays more than a “healthy” level of self preservational fear/instinct. > [@](#): > > And these people share one thing—they’re radical Islamists. They share more than that. Like I said, there have been plenty of terrorists from that part of the world that have minimal levels of religious conviction. > [@](#): > > We certainly can quibble as to exactly how much of a threat there is (which the government is constantly trying to assess), and based on that how much fear is healthy. Healthy because it will cause vigilance. Fear is useless to us. Vigilance is useful but unless we are in a warzone, the sort of xenophobic paranoia you display isn’t going to do much besides get some brown people dragged behind a pickup truck some day. > [@](#): > > But you’ll have none of that. In your child mind you see me as leaping from: threat \> identify threat \> radical Islam, and jump to an accusation of racist or bigot. You think I’m the one simplifying things? Wow. And yes you are a racist and bigot. Perhaps there was a time when you were merely open to the ideas of bigotry and racism but now you have accepted them. Fear and paranoia drove you to it and perhaps when the fear goes away, your bigotry will too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1163 "2011-02-18T16:45:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is from where our disagreement stems. I _agree_ that Islam—by itself—is not the problem. Got that? I AGREE. Then why the OP? Does whipping a raped girl to death really give us a “flavor” for Islam? > [@](#): > > But there _are_ groups of radical Islamists who do want to kill us. > [@](#): > > To not use the information that radial Islam is a common denominator is the height of foolishness. You have been talking about Islam not some small slice of people who have adopted radical Islam. They haven’t always been this radical, what do you think might have radicalized them? Was it the inevitable evolution of Islam to produce suicide bombers? > [@](#): > > If they could argue in this thread that is precisely what they would argue. They don’t want you to focus on them, they’d prefer that we spread our attention over a broader group. I think you are confusing which side of this argument wants to spread our attention over an overly broad group. In case you haven’t been paying attention we’ve got a shooting war against those radical types. > [@](#): > > You are focusing too much on the fact that a defining characteristic of the group wanting to kill us happens to be a strain of a religion. Thats not true. Tell me which liberal groups thinks we should adopt a live and let live attitude with the Taliban? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1164 "2011-02-18T16:56:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tell me which liberal groups thinks we should adopt a live and let live attitude with the Taliban? Although probably not totally exhaustive reference, a quick perusal of information presented by the ones under the “Peace Orgnizations” section reveals a strong tendency to go along with that idea. [http://lakehillsliberals.org/resource/50LiberalOrganizations.htm](http://lakehillsliberals.org/resource/50LiberalOrganizations.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1165 "2011-02-18T17:28:49Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Although probably not totally exhaustive reference, a quick perusal of information presented by the ones under the “Peace Orgnizations” section reveals a strong tendency to go along with that idea. :dubious: You’re trying to extrapolate from the fundamental principles of **peace** organizations in particular—i.e., organizations whose whole raison d’etre is the promotion of non-violent solutions to conflict—to generalize about the views of “liberal groups” as a whole. That isn’t a very persuasive argument. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1166 "2011-02-18T17:40:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That isn’t a very persuasive argument. The only thing I’m arguing with is people’s tendencies on this message board to characterize concepts like you raise such liberal’s positions on fighting the Taliban. In a sweeping generalization such as you presented, that idea could really not be further from the truth, as you explain yourself and I clearly cite. It fails to make your point or support your argument in a most fundamental way. Now who’s generalizing? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1167 "2011-02-18T18:01:54Z")
Um… you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1168 "2011-02-18T18:19:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Ask the survivors of the Alfred P Murrah Building. This nonsense again? From you? Oh, you disappoint me greatly, **tommy**. Short answer: isolated incident by an angry murderous animal and his partner in crime. It is not tied to any other incident. He and his buddies did not act as part of a larger group. If you think otherwise, please cite the other incidents. In other words, it’s just about the opposite situation of Muslim terrorists: Multiple acts. Multiple, discrete individuals. One unifying idea: radical Islam. > [@tomndebb](#): > > However, there is no need to “start” with Islam or Muslims. We can start with the radical Islamists and skip one entire wasteful (and hate engendering) step. This is for the same reason that you are probably not interested in being “wary” of everyone on the American Right, because you already know that the extremists like McVeigh and Nichols and Fortier are only an identifiable subset of the Right wing, (and, of course, you are not comfortable being wary of yourself 😉 ). The radical Islamists are quite open about who they are and we have no need to go getting all paranoid about “Islam” as though we need a whole series of successively finer filters to discover the bad guys. You simply enjoy putting your hate on the largest number of people that you can envelope in your paranoid fantasies. Where to start. Okay, three things. 1) I don’t hate all Muslims. Not in the least. Not all Muslims here, nor abroad. Many, most, of them are just trying to raise families and have a pleasant life. 2) While many radical Islamists are indeed quite open about there beliefs, do you really think that everyone of them who wishes to do us harm will be be speaking out from a soapbox. Do you think them all stupid? Do you not think that they have brains enough, if they’re planning a murderous event, to lay low. 3) Now up to your initial sentence: why start with Muslims, or Islam? Should be kinda obvious. In fact it is: radical Islam is a subset of Islam. Where do you think you’d be finding them, in synagogues and Quaker Meeting Houses? > [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m not all that interested in how often you backpedal and try to weasel out of your primary declarations. As Kimstu has noted, you switch between “Islam” and “radical Islam” with no real consistent behavior. I just quoted you making the absurd claim that numerous stories (that generally refer to backward patriarchies with abhorrent practices such as are also found in similar Christian and Hindu and Animist, (and probably Buddhist), communities), “point to Islam” when what they actually point out is that much of the world tends toward barbarous behavior. Every time the similarities between barbarous acts by Muslims are compared to barbarous acts by other groups, you pretend that there is something special about Islam even though there is no such special feature. Sure there is. Let’s assume that there are a good amount of stories, like the one in the OP, that can be attributed, at least in part, to poor, ignorant people still living in the stone age. Let’s even say (though I don’t believe this for a second) that the number of incidents is roughly correlates with the number of people in each group living like that. Well, then, I think you’d be right in saying that Islam plays no more a role in their barbarism than Christianity or whatever other religion. But we have more information. We have the FACT that such barbarism from Muslims is not relegated to isolated little villages with people living in mud huts. We have very educated Muslims, very wealthy Muslims inflicting the same barbarism on humanity, whether it be the evil infidels, apostates, innocent women in children in their own countries or members of their own families. They stoop to their barbarism in these little remote villages and even when they come live very comfortably elsewhere, including the U.S. So, you’re wrong, there IS some “special feature”. There IS common denominator, some thread in Islam that makes Muslims more prone to acting like troglodytes then other groups. Sorry to shower you with reality. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Because I am more interested in pointing out the flaws in your true beliefs than I am in watching you cover your ass with (im)plausible deniability. When you initiate a Recreational Outrage rant in the Pit that you title “More Muslim Marvelousness” and then ignore the aspects of the story that indicate how the actions of the Muslims who perpetrated the crime were opposed by Muslims before the crime–including references to Muslim courts that noted the the proposed action was in violation of Muslim law–you are sending a clear signal that in your odd little world, only the bad actions of Muslims are worthy of note. Backpedalling with claims that you really only meant the “bad” Muslims fails. You are selective about the evil you choose to examine in the world, so you come to an incorrect conclusion about any “common denominator.” You claim it is Islam, yet we find similar behavior in many other locales and communities. The “common denominator” is not actually Islam, but the regressive societies in which the Muslims and Christians and Hindus and Animists and others live while their actions are opposed by their more progressive Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Animist, and other neighbors. By deliberately limiting the groups you examine, you place bias into your purported results. Of course it appears that “Islam” is the “common denominator” when your examination limits your survey to only Muslim communities. That is merely a tautology–and a lame one. See above. It would probably do you well to read it twice anyway. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1169 "2011-02-18T18:34:54Z")
**magellan01** , way back upthread, I asked you—allowing for the moment that your thesis is correct, that Islam is the common thread in all this sinister business—what your proposed solution would be, given that Muslim numbers are approaching 2 billion worldwide. Presumably it’s something more constructive than whinging on a message board? Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1170 "2011-02-18T18:55:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, you’re wrong, there IS some “special feature”. There IS common denominator, some thread in Islam that makes Muslims more prone to acting like troglodytes then other groups. Nope, sorry, you still don’t get it. That “common denominator” is **the radical Islamist movement itself**. Trying to generalize the common factor to Islam **as a whole** is just confusing the issue to no purpose. Look at an analogous case. It’s indisputably true that nowadays Christians are more likely than Buddhists to be terrorists or engage in religious violence. Should we look for the explanation of that in comparative scriptural exegesis of Christianity and Buddhism, or start increasing surveillance on Christians as a group, or complain that Christianity is the “common factor” at the root of the problem? No, that would be pointless and counterproductive. What we’d need to do instead is trace the _particular violent radical movement(s) within Christianity_ that are leading to the higher levels of violence. Approaching the problem at the level of some hypothesized fundamental intrinsic difference between faiths is a waste of time. You know, **magellan01** , I’m really starting to question my earlier acceptance of your assurance that you’re not bigoted against Muslims in general. You seem to be desperately clinging to the alleged necessity of criticizing and condemning Muslims in general or Islam as a whole, even when it’s repeatedly explained to you why that’s irrelevant or counterproductive in fighting radical-Islamist terrorism and religious violence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1171 "2011-02-18T19:07:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **NOW** This seems superficially logical, **but it’s fallacious**. Since Muslim self-identification is only one of the correlating factors for terrorist activity, and a very weakly correlating factor at that, it’s extremely misleading to use Muslim self-identification **solely** or even **primarily** to estimate the likelihood of danger from terrorism. I’ve never advocated using it “solely”. As far as “primarily”. if you mean "most important, I’d say no. If you mean “first step”, it’s useful. again, within which group are you most likely to find radical Muslims? Answer: Muslims! > [@Kimstu](#): > > This is very clearly shown by the fact that your statement about how to “increase the odds of living next door to a terrorist” is actually **false**. According to [a recent report from the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security](http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/study-shows-more-non-muslim-terrorists-us), as of 2010 there were actually **more** non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans involved in terrorist plots. > > Yup, believe it or not, according to the actual statistics, living next to a Muslim in the US nowadays would **decrease** your likelihood of living next door to a terrorist, not increase it. Actually, your own cite disagrees with you and agrees with me: > [@](#): > > The Triangle Center notes in its report that with “Muslims comprising about 1 percent of the American population, it is clear that Muslims are engaging in terrorism at a greater rate than non-Muslims…” I’ll also note that they put the American Muslim population at about 3 million, which makes my position stronger. The smaller the pool the more sense it makes to look at it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Naturally. That’s a very important and valid goal. **But in order to work most effectively toward that goal, _we MUST use the most effective and intelligent ways of identifying WHICH people are likely to try to kill us._** According to your cite, acts of terrorism in the U.S. by Muslims last year numbered at 10, while the number of terrorist acts by non Muslims came in at 20. So Muslims committed only a third of the terrorist acts. But they make up just 1% of the population. So, we have: 10 acts / 3 million Muslims versus 20 acts / 297 million non-Muslims Let’s call this the Terrorist Propensity Quotient. Muslims have a TPQ for Muslims of 0.000003, and a TPQ for non-Muslims of 0.00000006734. Do the math and you discover that Muslims are 49 times more likely that non-Muslims to commit a terrorist act. > [@Kimstu](#): > > If we tried to apply enhanced scrutiny and avoidance to Muslims as a group, the way you’re suggesting, we’d be wasting an appalling amount of time and resources, and cutting off useful contacts and information. That category is just too broad, and its overall correlation with terrorist activity just too weak, to be a useful filter for terrorist-spotting. As **tomndebb** notes, what we have to do is skip that time-wasting step and go straight to identifying the factors that **strongly** correlate to terrorism, like **involvement with _radical_ Islam in particular**. I appreciate that you’re trying to understand my pint of view, but you’re misstating my position. The only thing I’ve been advocating is that “Muslimness” is a sensible, hell, a tautological first step. Again, if you’re looking for radical Xs, doesn’t it make sense to start looking in the big bog of Xs? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Metaphor time: If you’re looking for a needle in a haystack, and you know that the needle’s in a section where the hay is rotten, you don’t waste your time picking through the entire haystack stalk by stalk. Instead, you figure out where the rotten section is and concentrate your search there. Especially if you don’t have a lot of time to waste. But your analogy assumes that radical Islamists have separated themselves out from the general Muslim population in a way that is obvious. That is the case for some, like the Ft. Hood animal, but certainly not all. Not even a majority. Look at the 9/11 hijackers. Look at the wannabe Times Square bomber? They’re not raising their hands saying, “Oh, look at me over here. I’m who you should be keeping an eye on.” My analogy is: if you know you’re looking for a needle hidden in a haystack,start by looking in haystacks. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1172 "2011-02-18T19:09:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You know, **magellan01** , I’m really starting to question my earlier acceptance of your assurance that you’re not bigoted against Muslims in general. You seem to be desperately clinging to the alleged necessity of criticizing and condemning Muslims in general or Islam as a whole, even when it’s repeatedly explained to you why that’s irrelevant or counterproductive in fighting radical-Islamist terrorism and religious violence. You may want to read my last post to you and rethink your own position, since you were wrong about what your cite said. Will you? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1173 "2011-02-18T19:14:31Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > **magellan01** , way back upthread, I asked you—allowing for the moment that your thesis is correct, that Islam is the common thread in all this sinister business—what your proposed solution would be, given that Muslim numbers are approaching 2 billion worldwide. As I’ve said in this thread any every other one about this subject. My strategy only makes sense if the group is relatively small. Looking at 1.6 billion people? Not so helpful. Focusing on 3 million instead of 3 million? Your tools just got 100 times more effective. Apply another filter for maleness and age, and you’re quickly down to about less than a million. Using **Kimstu’s** haystack analogy, would you rather be tasked with finding a needle in a haystack comprised of 300 million strands of hay or 1 million? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1174 "2011-02-18T19:21:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As I’ve said in this thread any every other one about this subject. My strategy only makes sense if the group is relatively small. Looking at 1.6 billion people? Not so helpful. Focusing on 3 million instead of 3 million? Your tools just got 100 times more effective. Apply another filter for maleness and age, and you’re quickly down to about less than a million. Using **Kimstu’s** haystack analogy, would you rather be tasked with finding a needle in a haystack comprised of 300 million strands of hay or 1 million? Okay, once you’ve whittled it down to a manageable number, what do you propose we do with them? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1175 "2011-02-18T19:27:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Okay, once you’ve whittled it down to a manageable number, what do you propose we do with them? Me? Nothing. But I assume that those tasked with protecting us would then apply filters that would reveal their degree of radicalness. Mosque affiliation, travel, etc.. Whatever filters they deem helpful. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1176 "2011-02-18T19:28:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > … Short answer: isolated incident by an angry murderous animal and his partner in crime. It is not tied to any other incident. He and his buddies did not act as part of a larger group. If you think otherwise, please cite the other incidents. … > [@](#): > > … Members of the Aryan Republican Army were responsible for a series of 22 bank robberies in the American Midwest. They reportedly targeted banks in the Midwest due to a belief that security measures there would be less thorough. Known members of the ARA include Michael William Brescia, Mark William Thomas, Richard Lee Guthrie Jr., Peter Kevin Langan, Kevin McCarthy, and Scott Stedeford. … > … Brescia and Guthrie both resided for a time at Elohim City, a private community made up of followers of the late Christian Identity pastor Robert G. Millar, and other persons associated with right-wing extremist and White nationalist-style views. Other ARA members were known to frequent Elohim City as well. Elohim City security director Andreas Strassmeir was a known associate of Timothy McVeigh’s (having met him at a Tulsa gun show), and federal investigators determined that McVeigh had made a phone call to Elohim City on April 5th, 1995, just two weeks prior to the Oklahoma City bombing (although no one at Elohim City claims to have spoken with him). Additionally, five separate women from a nightclub in Tulsa have each identified Brescia as the man who was paying for Tim McVeigh’s drinks on April 8th, 1995, just three days after McVeigh’s suspicious phone call. Two more women in Kansas reported that McVeigh and Brescia were frequent associates, while Guthrie bore a distinct physical resemblance to “John Doe Number Two”. Timothy McVeigh’s sister, Jennifer, also claimed he had been one of the participants in several, unspecified bank robberies. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army)[/RIGHT] > [@](#): > > Elohim City is a private community in Adair County, Oklahoma founded by Robert G. Millar in 1973. … > … Its 400 acres (1.6 km2) are frequented by Christian Identity followers. The community gained national attention for its supposed ties to members of the Silent Brotherhood {The Order, also known as the Brüder Schweigen or Silent Brotherhood} in the 1980s and with convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh in the 1990s. … > … The remains of former Elohim City guest Richard Snell were released to Elohim City residents following his April 19, 1995, execution in Arkansas. Snell taunted jailers that something drastic would happen on the day of his execution. The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was destroyed by explosives in the hours before he died. Earlier criminal proceedings had produced evidence that Snell and other affiliates had visited the Murrah building to examine it as a possible bombing target in 1983. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim_City,_Oklahoma)[/RIGHT] > [@](#): > > The Order, also known as the Brüder Schweigen or Silent Brotherhood, was an organization active in the United States between 1983 and 1984. The Order, a white nationalist revolutionary group, is probably best known for the 1984 murder of radio talk show host Alan Berg. … > … To fund their goals, the Order committed a series of violent crimes. First the robbery of a sex shop, which netted them less than USD $400. Afterwards, the Order’s attacks were more effective, committing several lucrative bank robberies, as well as bombing a theater and a synagogue. The Order ran a large counterfeiting operation, and executed a series of armored car robberies, including one near Ukiah, California that netted $3.8 million. > > The Order drew up a hit list of enemies, and on June 18, 1984 radio talk show host Alan Berg was murdered in front of his home by Bruce Pierce, assisted by other members of The Order. Berg was number two on The Order’s list. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28group%29)[/RIGHT] There’s more if you feel like playing “follow the Wiki links”. In other words, it’s just about the same situation as Muslim terrorists\*: Multiple acts. Multiple, connected individuals. One unifying idea: [Christian Identity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity). \*Not that I accept the notion that you can connect every act of “Muslim terrorism”, at least not without an “Official Glenn Beck Conspiracy Blackboard”. CMC fnord! There is an inverse relationship between the time it takes to construct a post and the degree to which it contributes to a discussion. ~ **Hentor the Barbarian** ’s[Rule of Posting Composition](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7063251&postcount=20) Though in _some_ cases this has nothing to do with the _content_ of the post in question. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1177 "2011-02-18T19:36:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now assuming a minor miracle occurred and you realize you did so because it was logical (you did manage to cut the number of potential perpetrators from about 300 million to 150 million), what might be a next step? Maybe looking at those over 16 years of age? again, that wold be logical, right? and then maybe we can make this list smaller still by eliminating those over, say 70 years old. Logical? Now I don’t know what number you’d be left with, but let’s call it 90 million. Can we do anything with that? I’d say no, and I will assume you will agree. Why? Because the pool is too big. > > Now let’s look at what I’ve been doing. We start with the fact that a good portion of the people who want to kill us share one trait: they’re radical Muslims males. So how do we try to identify these individuals? Well, we could use your example and look to all males in the U.S. But that would just cut us to 150 million or so. Not very helpful. But wait what if we use the fact that these radical Muslims are (drumroll) MUSLIMS?! By doing that we cut the pool of most suspects down to the 7 million or so Muslims in the U.S. Now add the filter of gender, and you’re down to around 3 or 4 million. Use another filter, like, aged between 16 and 60 and the numbers shrink more. You get the idea. > > The point is, if we make use of the fact that radical Muslims are Muslims we _immediately_ cut the number of those who might in fact be murderous barbarians from 300 million to 7 million. We know that not everyone in the group is a murderous barbarian, but we do know that all the murderous barbarians wanting to kill innocents in the name of Allah will be in the group. Don’t you think that’s a helpful first step. Or does it make sense to you that in our desire to identify those Muslim extremists who want to kill us before they do that we spend equal time looking at elderly Norwegian ladies and have the FBI expend their resources equally among Mosques and Quaker Meeting Houses? > > Really. This isn’t that hard. You just have to stop knee-jerking a try a little. If you can figure out how to post on this website you should be able to see the sense in what I propose and the flagrant stupidity of the nonsense you been putting forth. OK so leaving aside your OP where you imply that whipping 14 year old rape victims to death is emblematic of Islam. (which BTW is why people are calling you a bigot) Leaving aside your argument that somehow the Q’uran is driving all this Islamic violence, despite the lack of a historical concentration of violence comeing from islam versus other folks. (which jsut addsd to the impression that you are a bigot) You are now focusing on the fact that it is a lot easier to focus our attention on 4 million muslim men in America than it would be to focus on 300 million Americans. Is that about right? (now you’re trying to portray a harsh realist) Are you under the impression that we keep tabs on random members of the population to make sure they don’t set off a car bomb? Here’s what we do, we keep track of anyone who has travelled to certain countries, or have corresponded with radical groups (whether they be radical imams or Timothy McVeigh). We don’t keep track of all Muslim males, there’s just too many to keep track of on more than a cursory basis unless we want to round them up and put them all in a ghetto. There was a time when Puerto Ricans were FAR more likely to commit terrorist attacks on Americans than the rest of the world combined. We kept tabs on the radical ones but some people at the time implied that there was something wrong with Puerto Ricans that drove them to terrorism, that we should keep track of ALL Puerto Ricans. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1178 "2011-02-18T19:40:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Me? Nothing. But I assume that those tasked with protecting us would then apply filters that would reveal their degree of radicalness. Mosque affiliation, travel, etc.. Whatever filters they deem helpful. Presumably you feel this isn’t being done now? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1179 "2011-02-18T19:42:01Z")
**crowmanyclouds** , If you wanted to stop bank robberies, it look like The Aryan Republican Army might be a good place to start. And I see no evidence that it would make sense to look at Muslims. On the other hand, if you want to stop terrorism within the U.S., Islam is a good starting place. They are not responsible for a majority of the terrorism in the U.S., but as **Kimstu’s** link showed a good chunk of them, a third, are perpetrated by Muslims. If another third can be traced to another group of similar size, that wold be another group to look at, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1180 "2011-02-18T19:44:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The only thing I’ve been advocating is that “Muslimness” is a sensible, hell, a tautological first step. Again, if you’re looking for radical Xs, doesn’t it make sense to start looking in the big bog [“bag”?] of Xs? But if you know that the radical Xs are most likely to be _within a particular little bag INSIDE the big bag of Xs_, then **why would you waste your time sifting through the WHOLE bag of Xs??** Focus your scrutiny on that little bag instead. This insistence on focusing on the “big bag” as an object of scrutiny, even though **we have already identified the salient characteristics of the “little bag” where the problem is actually located** , is the part of your argument that seems totally, persistently irrational. Since we have a very clear picture of the particular types of **radical extremist Islam** where this religious violence is actually located, why are you still so insistent about the need to scrutinize or mistrust Islam **as a whole**? If somebody’s looking for, say, a beautiful female model to be his true love, would it make sense for him to say “well, a female model is a woman so I’ll start by looking among groups of women in general”? Should he try to scope out all the places where women are more likely to be found than men, from mall shoe stores to knitting clubs to roller derby leagues to Tupperware parties, and look for beautiful models among them? Would that be “a sensible, hell, a tautological first step” in his search, as you suggest? _ **Of course not.** _ If our hypothetical model-hunter has any sense, he’ll concentrate his search **on the places where he’s likely to find female models RATHER than other types of women**. He’ll check out modeling agencies, fashion shoots, hell I don’t know, where else do models hang out? The point is that **he’ll use the _specific_ characteristics of the type he’s looking for to narrow his search right away**. He won’t start his search with her most **general** characteristics and then try to screen out the vast majority who don’t meet his specific criteria. That type of ridiculously over-broad and diffused search strategy is exactly what you’re advocating in the case of hunting radical-Islamist terrorists. Do you see why your argument is coming across as so inexplicably bizarre and irrational? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=60)