# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/121 "2011-02-05T23:43:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It was very intentional. There are some barbaric passages in the Old Testament. But most people or followers of Judeo-Christian religions do not give it more weight than the New Testament. Do you know what sects do? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm, Jews maybe? And many, many Christians. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/122 "2011-02-05T23:47:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > One thing I’d like to ask **ncdane** , **magellan** and those who agree with them: to clarify, you seem to think that Islam, as a religion, is inherently violent/evil/whatever adjective you wish to use. So what? What do we, or can we, do about it? How do we treat countries whose majorities practice it? How do we (as citizens or as institutions, whether government or law enforcement based) treat those who practice it? In a perfect world, how would you LIKE things to be done? I don’t profess to know the magic solution, but feel very confident that what we have been doing is not right. Ignoring the atrocities against women while attacking those that do have the courage to speak out against it is not the answer. ---
**Author:** ![NCDane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@NCDane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCDane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/123 "2011-02-05T23:47:33Z")
Excuse me forbreaking in here, but… > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As I mentioned, in parts of Sub Saharran Africa, Christians are murdering “witches”. …to establish equivalence between Christian and Muslim depravity you need to show some reason for believing that 50% of ALL Christians endorse the need for witchhunts, and capital punishment of witches. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’ve decided to condemn all of Islam for one act committed in Bangladesh, the poorest most backward country on Earth with the Bangladeshi authorities are trying to punish, yet you don’t condemn all of Christians for similar backwardness in the backward parts of the Christian world. The attitudes displayed in the Bangladesh episode may be anecdotal, but the poll results are not, and they paint a no better picture. Also, the offending African Christians (if the offenders are indeed Christian) do not necessarily enjoy a higher state of development than Bangladesh, and I am not sure why backwardness should serve as an excuse anyway. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Furthermore, you’ve completely ignored the fact that traditional Islam doesn’t proscribe stoning for adultery. Flogging is bad enough if you subscribe to the ideal of prohibiting cruel and unusual punishement. And Apostasy IS a capital crime, right? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > In fact, unlike traditional Christianity it doesn’t even proscribe the death penalty. Yes, like Christianity and Judaism, the Quran says that adultery is a serious crime, but whereas the Bible says they are to be executed, the Quran merely proscribes lashes. No, Christianity most certainly does not. Since you are too lazy or cowardly to click the citation I provded before I guess it should be quoted in full: [John 8: “Let he who is without sin…”](http://range.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/let-he-who-is-without-sin-cast-the-first-stone/) (emphasis added) > [@](#): > > 1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, **Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act**. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but **what sayest thou?** 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, **He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her**. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. **And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.** Got in now? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > In short those who stone women for adultery are going against the Quran. So 50% of the entire world Muslim congregation is going against its own Holy Book? There is nothing at all in the Koran or Hadith which might be interpreted as prescribing stoning for adultery? And, once more, how about apostasy? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The stoning of women for adultery was, like female genital mutilation, a pre-Islamic practice that has unfortunately become part of what some Muslims view as Islamic tradition. And, once more, how about apostasy? ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/124 "2011-02-06T00:05:33Z")
> [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > In short those who stone women for adultery are going against the Quran. The Hadith, regarded by many Islamic scholars as a lens through which to interpret the Qur’an, repeatedly mandates stoning as punishment for adultery. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/125 "2011-02-06T01:41:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, what do you do when a 40-year-old uncle rapes his 14-year-old niece? If you guessed, “the next day she gets whipped until she dies”, then you might have a feel for Islam. > > [Here you go.](http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=172669) Unbelievable. What barbarians. No, what _monsters_. > > Yet, their might be a bright side. The court actually thinks something might be wrong here and are looking into it. We’ll see. That’s pretty fucked up. Where did the events in the linked story take place, btw? The newspaper’s website seems to take it for granted that anyone reading it would know. So is this all about inviting us to join you in some RO, or did you have some other purpose in mind in starting this thread? The ummm, _provocatively_ worded title is suggestive, but I’d appreciate some clarification. If it’s not too much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/126 "2011-02-06T01:41:23Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I don’t profess to know the magic solution, but feel very confident that what we have been doing is not right. Ignoring the atrocities against women while attacking those that do have the courage to speak out against it is not the answer. But we haven’t been doing anything, with regard to the 14-year-old girls who have been murdered for being raped in some godforsaken village halfway across the world. Neither have we been doing anything regarding the men who torture and murder 13-year-old girls for witchcraft somewhere in the asshole of Tanzania, except requesting their [blessings for our vice-presidential candidates.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwkb9_zB2Pg) Never mind a magic solution, what would you have us do at all, aside from looking for ways to insult and vent outrage at one quarter of the world’s population? What can this crime possibly have to do with the guy who owns the little computer store around the corner from me? Or the couple who own the African grocery? Why do you need to condemn an entire group of unrelated people based on your ability pull embarassing quotes from a 1500-year-old book? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/127 "2011-02-06T01:55:14Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Islam needs a reformation, it needs the equivalent of a Protestant schism so as to create literally a market of Islamic faith, what Islam needs is some competition within its own ranks, something that would allow believers to discover humanity - something that is sadly lacking in around half of all those muslims noted in the earlier figures. A schism in Islam? I doubt that could happen, the concept doesnt translate in Arabic. Is it an obligation to be quasi illiterate to be a Muslim hater? P.S: **John Mace** , I totally agree with you, should I go to a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/128 "2011-02-06T02:08:33Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Never mind a magic solution, what would you have us do at all, aside from looking for ways to insult and vent outrage at one quarter of the world’s population? What can this crime possibly have to do with the guy who owns the little computer store around the corner from me? Or the couple who own the African grocery? Why do you need to condemn an entire group of unrelated people based on your ability pull embarassing quotes from a 1500-year-old book? For one, I don’t care about embarrassing quotes from a 1500 yr old book. If that makes me an infidel or even a heretic, I care not. For starters, the Leaders of the “civilized” nations need to start pointing out this kind of barbaric treatment and declaring that there is no room for it in modern society and if the it those actions continue those nations will be spurned from aid, trade, etc. Also, for cases where this type of barbaric treatment is popping up among immigrants to civilized nations - the full force of law needs to be applied including expulsion for those that are in support. We have to establish with 100% certainty that the civilized nations will no longer tolerate this. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/129 "2011-02-06T02:37:10Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > For one, I don’t care about embarrassing quotes from a 1500 yr old book. If that makes me an infidel or even a heretic, I care not. Good. That’s a start. No quoting the Q’uran (in translation and out of context and who the hell really thinks we shall not suffer a witch to live around here, the tattoo shops would all go out of business) to prove Islam is a religion of barbarism. > [@](#): > > For starters, the Leaders of the “civilized” nations need to start pointing out this kind of barbaric treatment and declaring that there is no room for it in modern society and if the it those actions continue those nations will be spurned from aid, trade, etc. As was pointed out above, you can’t have a reformation until a society is ready for it. Spurning aid, trade, etc. will empower the most backward elements in a society, and undermine the most forward-thinking. Aid and trade make a modern society, which is the enemy of religious absolutism. > [@](#): > > Also, for cases where this type of barbaric treatment is popping up among immigrants to civilized nations - the full force of law needs to be applied including expulsion for those that are in support. So we’ll enforce our own laws(the way that Bangladesh is doing by prosecuting the imam who ordered this girl whipped). Okay, but “expulsion for those who are in support”? What exactly does that mean? How do we know who is “in support”? It was my understanding that freedom of conscience was the cornerstone of our society. Do we start expelling people for what they believe? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/130 "2011-02-06T02:50:19Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > So we’ll enforce our own laws(the way that Bangladesh is doing by prosecuting the imam who ordered this girl whipped). Okay, but “expulsion for those who are in support”? What exactly does that mean? How do we know who is “in support”? It was my understanding that freedom of conscience was the cornerstone of our society. Do we start expelling people for what they believe? Nitpick - the Bangladesh are investigating, that’s as far as the news story I saw went. Says nothing about prosecuting anyone. As far as my comment regarding expulsion for those in support - it’s no secret that there are groups and powerful individuals (among the immigrants) that are driving and have been very vocal in regarding establishing sharia law in the west. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/131 "2011-02-06T02:52:59Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > As was pointed out above, you can’t have a reformation until a society is ready for it. Spurning aid, trade, etc. will empower the most backward elements in a society, and undermine the most forward-thinking. Aid and trade make a modern society, which is the enemy of religious absolutism. If the aid and trade are only empowering those already guilty of endorsing these barbaric actions, then it does no good. Might as well leave them in the dark ages and move on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/132 "2011-02-06T03:12:08Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Also, for cases where this type of barbaric treatment is popping up among immigrants to civilized nations - the full force of law needs to be applied including expulsion for those that are in support. > > As far as my comment regarding expulsion for those in support - it’s no secret that there are groups and powerful individuals (among the immigrants) that are driving and have been very vocal in regarding establishing sharia law in the west. Let me get this straight. You want to expel US citizens for advocating Sharia law? **Captain Zombie:** Not to be insulting or anything, but I really don’t know who you are or recall your posting history. But if you have a fever, I would definitely go see your doctor. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/133 "2011-02-06T03:22:41Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Nitpick - the Bangladesh are investigating, that’s as far as the news story I saw went. Says nothing about prosecuting anyone. > > As far as my comment regarding expulsion for those in support - it’s no secret that there are groups and powerful individuals (among the immigrants) that are driving and have been very vocal in regarding establishing sharia law in the west. I would posit that it’s possible to disagree with someone, fundamentally, and not want them deported. For example, I don’t think the UK ought to deport the [Archbishop of Canterbury](http://www.slate.com/id/2184186/). Aid and trade may or may not help the situation, but cutting them off will always empower those people who never wanted to engage with the outside world in the first place. It’s also worth considering that the majority of Scary Muslim stories come from countries where we don’t threaten to cut off trade with them. [They threaten to cut off trade with us.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis) ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/134 "2011-02-06T03:27:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let me get this straight. You want to expel US citizens for advocating Sharia law? I don’t think I specified US Citizen, but if that were the case we could certainly investigate their citizenship status and take actions accordingly. I would not have an issue in revoking in some cases. For US born citizens, I’d be willing to consider legal actions to quell their support. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/135 "2011-02-06T03:43:54Z")
Does [Halakha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha) get an automatic pass? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/136 "2011-02-06T03:57:32Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Does [Halakha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha) get an automatic pass? > > CMC fnord! Can’t say as I’ve heard anyone, or any group, pushing for Halakha laws to be adopted (at least in the US) as they have Sharia. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/137 "2011-02-06T04:14:55Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > For US born citizens, I’d be willing to consider legal actions to quell their support. I assume that would also apply to Christian Reconstructionists, Moonies, white supremacists, black supremacists, eugenicists, fascists, Nazis, Stalinists, Trotskyites, monarchists, anarchists, and people who want to amend the Constitution to deny the free speech rights of people whose politics they disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/138 "2011-02-06T04:23:33Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Or when they hear about Christians picketing the funerals of gay teenagers, or bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors, or any number of other vile acts. Those wacky Christians! Of course when a Christian does something abhorrent, it’s just the actions of a lone extremist, whereas when a Muslim does something abhorrent it’s because 100% of them are teh evil. How long have you been on the SDMB? Here, “Christian” is synonymous with “closed-minded bigoted home-schooling fundamentalist evangelical speaking-in-tongues Bible-thumper who live, breathe, eat and sleep Jesus”, not with “mainstream Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and UCCers.” I’m just glad the SDMB hasn’t gone all Democracy Now! with a dominant belief that Jews are all teh eeevil recreational oppressors of Palestinians. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/139 "2011-02-06T04:32:38Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Can’t say as I’ve heard anyone, or any group, pushing for Halakha laws to be adopted (at least in the US) as they have Sharia. Nor I, it’s just when I read this, > [@flickster](#): > > I don’t think I specified US Citizen, but if that were the case we could certainly investigate their citizenship status and take actions accordingly. I would not have an issue in revoking in some cases. For US born citizens, I’d be willing to consider legal actions to quell their support. after reading “OMG the Moooslims want to take over our country” posts on message boards (not only elsewhere but, shockingly, here too) because some American bank wants to offer Shariah compliant loans to it’s customers, I kinda get nervous. Replacing Western “Common Law” with Sharia law doesn’t sound all that great to me, to say the least. But, if two parties agree to settle a (presumably civil) legal dispute using Halakha or Sharia or any other framework, and that settlement doesn’t violate the basic legal rights of the parties under the Common Law without the parties voluntary agreeing to it (again presumably, within reason (probably on a case by case basis, until a body of caselaw is established) . . . well, I still haven’t seen a reasonable explanation of just why I should be concerned. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/140 "2011-02-06T05:03:14Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I don’t think I specified US Citizen, but if that were the case we could certainly investigate their citizenship status and take actions accordingly. I would not have an issue in revoking in some cases. For US born citizens, I’d be willing to consider legal actions to quell their support. As **MEBuckner** suggests, I frankly find your willingness to shit on the first amendment far more of a realistic threat to our way of life than some dude’s fantasy about implementing Sharia law in our country. That dude’s fantasy will never, never, never take place, never ever ever. But you and your ilk might be successful at eroding first amendment protections. Yes, bring the full force of the law against people in our country who commit violence for whatever reason, absolutely. Bring the full force against people who advocate illegal actions, no problem. But when someone advocates changing the law to something stupid, we uphold our own dignity by simply mocking them, not by changing the law ourselves to something stupid. And yes, Islam has a repellent death cult hiding in its midst now, stronger in some countries and cultures than in others. The majority of Muslims aren’t members of that death cult, but it’s definitely there, and it’s definitely awful. And there are a lot more Muslims in that evil cult than there are Christians in Westboro Baptist church. And the actions of that death cult should be opposed with great vigor. (FTR, in the nineties, the only people I ever heard complaining about the Taliban were leftists, specifically feminists; pre-9-11 I never once heard a conservative say we should do anything to stop their horror). But if you can’t distinguish between the good folks who are Muslim and the insane folks who’ve joined the death cult, you’re an idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=8)