# More NC Elections Shenanigans **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256 "2018-06-17T13:28:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/341 "2019-09-12T01:41:40Z")
So, really, its about the Republicans stabbing the Dems in the back after saying that they wouldn’t! Now, if they hadn’t _lied_ about it, well, that’s just plain old fashioned American politics. I guess, then, that if we can’t _prove_ that they lied about the pending stab, then they get a pass on that. Then it just about trivial shit, just the simple stabbing _itself_. Hardly worth mentioning, without the lying part. Makes the whole thing a lot more serious, if they did _that!_ ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/342 "2019-09-12T01:43:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not seeing an explanation “c” on offer, which is why it’s so offensively absurd to suggest that those assurances weren’t offered. Possibility “c” is that the Democrats knew they would eventually lose this, and so did so in such a way as to make their opponents look as bad as possible. I’ve no idea how likely that is, but it’s what skilled politicians might do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/343 "2019-09-12T01:58:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Possibility “c” is that the Democrats knew they would eventually lose this, and so did so in such a way as to make their opponents look as bad as possible. I’ve no idea how likely that is, but it’s what skilled politicians might do. That’s not likely at all. Democrats had an organized, disciplined strategy. They were lied to about treating 9/11 as a day of truce. They believed that Republicans wouldn’t stoop so low as to tell this lie. Had Republicans had a shred of decency (and all 55 Republican present voted for the override, seeing in front of them evidence of leadership’s treachery), Democrats’ strategy would have held, and they would have been able to force a negotiated compromise. You know, like what grown-ass politicians do. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/344 "2019-09-12T05:17:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … Democrats had an organized, disciplined strategy. They were lied to about treating 9/11 as a day of truce. They believed that Republicans wouldn’t stoop so low as to tell this lie. … There is no evidence that any Republican legislator “lied” to any dem legislator about voting on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/345 "2019-09-12T06:17:44Z")
Even if we were to disregard the lack of evidence for a moment: Which NC legislator currently maintains that they were “lied” to by the Republicans about the vote? Can anyone even name one? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/346 "2019-09-12T06:36:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Even if we were to disregard the lack of evidence for a moment: Which NC legislator currently maintains that they were “lied” to by the Republicans about the vote? Can anyone even name one? Well, Rep. Deb Butler and Sen. Jeff Jackson, for two, seem [agreed that the Republicans’ behavior was dishonest and unethical.](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-cheated-north-carolina-veto-911-1458847) It’s Gov. Cooper who’s quoted as stating that “Democrats were told there would be no votes this morning”, which was “a bald-faced lie”. And when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario—that Democratic lawmakers, who have been fighting the Republican override attempts for weeks, just spontaneously assumed that the Pubs wouldn’t vote today even though there was no reason to believe that—then it seems pretty evident that Republicans did indeed deliberately lie to Democrats about not intending a vote. On the bright side, at least the Democrats have been warned again how sleazy and untrustworthy their Republican colleagues are, and we all get a reminder of the defeated Republicans’ [dirty tricks after losing the gubernatorial election](https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20860986/north-carolina-republican-power-play-cooper-budget-veto). The Republicans know that they can’t win if they don’t cheat, so they cheat. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/347 "2019-09-12T06:43:49Z")
[Another Democratic legislator quoted by name as claiming to have been lied to by the Pubs:](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article234984187.html) > [@](#): > > Democrats say many of their members missed the morning session because they were told verbally that there would be no vote on the budget. > > House Minority Leader Darren Jackson said Rep. David Lewis, a Republican who presided as House speaker on Tuesday, told him there would be no vote. And the same link also has a video of Rep. [Garland] Pierce saying the same thing, that he was told there would be no vote on the override. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/348 "2019-09-12T07:00:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, Rep. Deb Butler and Sen. Jeff Jackson, for two, seem [agreed that the Republicans’ behavior was dishonest and unethical.](https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-cheated-north-carolina-veto-911-1458847) It’s Gov. Cooper who’s quoted as stating that “Democrats were told there would be no votes this morning”, which was “a bald-faced lie”. > > And when you consider the unlikelihood of the alternative scenario—that Democratic lawmakers, who have been fighting the Republican override attempts for weeks, just spontaneously assumed that the Pubs wouldn’t vote today even though there was no reason to believe that—then it seems pretty evident that Republicans did indeed deliberately lie to Democrats about not intending a vote. … I think it’s perfectly clear what happened from the original article: Dems didn’t show up for work because Jackson (a dem) told them there wouldn’t be any votes. He _thought_ Lewis (a Republican) had told him that when Lewis had actually told him that there wouldn’t be votes on two particular “mini-budget” bills: > [@](#): > > House Minority Leader Darren Jackson said in a hastily called press conference after the vote that House Rules Chairman David Lewis told him Tuesday the House would take no recorded votes on the floor until 1 p.m. Wednesday. Jackson, D-Wake, said he then told his caucus they didn’t need to be on the floor Wednesday morning and could instead prepare for redistricting meetings and other legislative business planned for the day. > > Lewis, R-Harnett, said he never told Jackson there would be no votes on Wednesday morning, saying that he told him the House wouldn’t vote on two “mini-budget” bills added to the floor calendar that would provide money for disaster relief and for prison safety upgrades until after House Democrats caucused Wednesday morning. Jackson seems to have realized the mistake was his. The article goes on to say: “he doesn’t believe Lewis lied or misled him about the morning session.” As for the screeching Butler, she’s clearly angry about losing the vote, but she doesn’t appear to ever claim that any Republican told her no votes would be held. The only quotes I can find from her, across both articles, are: > [@](#): > > “You shall not do this to democracy in North Carolina, Mr. Speaker. How dare you do this, Mr. Speaker,” she shouted as Moore tried to gavel her to silence and then turned off her microphone. “I will not yield, Mr. Speaker.” > [@](#): > > Before the vote, Democratic Representative Deb Butler screamed in protest of Moore. > > “This is a tragedy. This is a travesty of the process, and you know it,” Butler yelled. “Mr. Speaker, how dare you, Mr. Speaker!” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/349 "2019-09-12T07:11:25Z")
The only Democrat who (originally) claimed to have been told there would be no vote (by a Republican) is Jackson, who at one point claimed Lewis told him, but then retreated from that claim later (“he doesn’t believe Lewis lied or misled him about the morning session.”) Everyone else in the dem caucus appears to have gotten the information second-hand (from Jackson, who “then told his caucus they didn’t need to be on the floor Wednesday morning”) not from a Republican. Pierce saying “that he was told there would be no vote on the override” is perfectly consistent with this, he just fails to mention that it was Jackson (a fellow dem) that told him, not a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/350 "2019-09-12T11:31:13Z")
This is video the full statement from Darren Jackson: [https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article234986257.html](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article234986257.html) He is saying (paraphrasing) “I am not calling Lewis … a liar [because he’s not the type of person who would make that accusation]” and then went on to describe in full how Lewis told him ther[ol] [/ol]e would be no vote before there was a vote, concluding that since Lewis also wasn’t there, he’s allowing for the possibility that Lewis also didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/351 "2019-09-12T12:30:05Z")
The specifics of who may have lied aren’t even particularly important, IMO – what’s important is that the Democrats, for some reason, had some trust that the Republicans would put aside politics for the 9/11 remembrance ceremonies. This was massively foolish, and hopefully they have learned this lesson forever. It doesn’t really matter why they had this trust – such trust was incredibly dumb no matter what assurances were given. Of course Republicans can’t be trusted to honor things like 9/11 remembrance ceremonies, or other moments of patriotism and honor. Why should they? What do they have to lose? They (Republicans in office, and many or most Trump supporters) have shown again and again that things like patriotism and honor (in addition to things like protecting women and girls, fighting bigotry and hatred, and even protecting American democracy) are far, far less important to them than things like harming migrants, protecting rapists and sexual assaulters, and angering liberals and progressives. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/352 "2019-09-12T14:50:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The specifics of who may have lied aren’t even particularly important, IMO – what’s important is that the Democrats, for some reason, had some trust that the Republicans would put aside politics for the 9/11 remembrance ceremonies. This was massively foolish, and hopefully they have learned this lesson forever. It doesn’t really matter why they had this trust – such trust was incredibly dumb no matter what assurances were given. > > Of course Republicans can’t be trusted to honor things like 9/11 remembrance ceremonies, or other moments of patriotism and honor. Why should they? What do they have to lose? They (Republicans in office, and many or most Trump supporters) have shown again and again that things like patriotism and honor (in addition to things like protecting women and girls, fighting bigotry and hatred, and even protecting American democracy) are far, far less important to them than things like harming migrants, protecting rapists and sexual assaulters, and angering liberals and progressives. Pretty much. The goal here is power at any cost. The republicans who do care about politics are, at this point, not going to hear about this story (because far-right news media is not going to cover this), going to just take the republicans at their word that the democrats did something stupid without being lied to, or who are so cynical or dishonest or authoritarian or partisan that they _just don’t care_, and are indeed happy that the republicans were smart enough to trick the democrats by lying to them about not voting on 9/11. What democrats need to understand is that this is what we’re dealing with. These are not people who are interested in fair play. They do not care what norms they break. They will lie, cheat, defraud, and more for the sake of political power. And anyone thinking that their promises are worth a damn needs to wake the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/353 "2019-09-12T16:09:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s perfectly clear what happened from the original article: Your interpretation wilfully ignores the fact that the Democrats were taken by surprise and outraged by the Republicans’ unexpected vote. You can’t plausibly explain that without acknowledging that their Republican colleagues deliberately tried to fool them into thinking that there would be no vote on the budget override that day, and then taunted them about not “coming in to work”. The Democrats’ only mistake was in thinking that the Republicans wouldn’t resort to dirty tricks to sneak through a legislative decision that they couldn’t achieve by fair means. Doubtless the Democrats will know better next time they consider whether it’s wise to trust Republican integrity. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/354 "2019-09-12T16:27:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Your interpretation wilfully ignores the fact that the Democrats were taken by surprise and outraged by the Republicans’ unexpected vote. … I didn’t ignore it. I acknowledged it and addressed it. The rest of the dem caucus was surprised because Jackson, their leader, had mistakenly told them there would be no votes on Wednesday. Their mistake was trusting Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/355 "2019-09-12T16:36:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Dems didn’t show up for work because Jackson (a dem) told them there wouldn’t be any votes. He _thought_ Lewis (a Republican) had told him that when Lewis had actually told him that there wouldn’t be votes on two particular “mini-budget” bills: **cough** Next time, _ignite_ your gaslight; all it’s doing is stinking up the place… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/356 "2019-09-12T17:12:56Z")
HD’s nonsense aside [gerrymandering continues apace](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1171950792196141056.html?fbclid=IwAR2bxnMWdWGQo9kOPvnH0QFfMu0fARIH2iEl6p-fsrov3UX54Gdl6e_pAZo). Check out the maps specifically. A district that was gerrymandered Republican has become a primarily urban, Democratic district. The current representative from the district comes in and redraws the line, making it a minority-urban, majority-rural district, both dividing up the urban vote and increasing his own chances of re-election. I trust the court is also watching. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/357 "2019-09-12T17:27:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > HD’s nonsense aside [gerrymandering continues apace](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1171950792196141056.html?fbclid=IwAR2bxnMWdWGQo9kOPvnH0QFfMu0fARIH2iEl6p-fsrov3UX54Gdl6e_pAZo). Check out the maps specifically. A district that was gerrymandered Republican has become a primarily urban, Democratic district. The current representative from the district comes in and redraws the line, making it a minority-urban, majority-rural district, both dividing up the urban vote and increasing his own chances of re-election. > > I trust the court is also watching. They’re also risking the 2020 primaries being delayed by doing this shit. They’ve been given a deadline of September 18 to get this done, and if the maps they submit aren’t acceptable to the court, that’s what’s going to happen. I’m trying to think if there’s some advantage for them to having a delay happen, but I guess I’m not sneaky enough by nature to think of anything. I think it’s just going to increase the number of people who are thoroughly exasperated with them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/358 "2019-09-12T17:32:32Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > They’re also risking the 2020 primaries being delayed by doing this shit. They’ve been given a deadline of September 18 to get this done, and if the maps they submit aren’t acceptable to the court, that’s what’s going to happen. > > I’m trying to think if there’s some advantage for them to having a delay happen, but I guess I’m not sneaky enough by nature to think of anything. I think it’s just going to increase the number of people who are thoroughly exasperated with them. I think they’re going to plan on a court-redrawn map, and they’ll frame it–as they’ve done–with the profoundly hypocritical “assault on democracy” narrative that they’ve been using since the court cases were first filed. I think they know that a fair map is likely to spell the end of their regime, so they’ll just try to rally the troops with a cynically dishonest story of elite liberal judges, a la Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/359 "2019-09-12T18:02:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There is no evidence that any Republican legislator “lied” to any dem legislator about voting on Wednesday. There is, in fact, evidence. Furthermore, in many of **your** posts **you** have even cited this evidence. You are just failing to recognize evidence as evidence. That’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256/360 "2019-09-12T19:55:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think they’re going to plan on a court-redrawn map, and they’ll frame it–as they’ve done–with the profoundly hypocritical “assault on democracy” narrative that they’ve been using since the court cases were first filed. I think they know that a fair map is likely to spell the end of their regime, so they’ll just try to rally the troops with a cynically dishonest story of elite liberal judges, a la Trump. I don’t really understand what that will get them. I am assuming these judges and the one’s on the State Supreme Court are elected, correct? If the courts impose a map drawn in a nonpartisan manner, then they are likely fucked for the near future, right? And SCOTUS has already washed their hands of gerrymandering cases of this sort so they won’t get any relief there. I’m just under the impression these jackasses don’t truly understand that their shenanigans are no longer going to get them what they want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-nc-elections-shenanigans/816256.md?page=19)