# More New York Geography Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 26, 2001, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270 "2001-11-26T12:57:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/1 "2001-11-26T12:57:09Z")
First, are Brooklyn & Queens part of Long Island? If you look at a map, it looks like Kings, Queens, Suffolk, & Nassau counties are all part of one big island. But frequently I hear people say things like “I work in Queens, and live out on Long Island.” What’s the deal? Second, where does upstate New York begin? I realize that there may not be an official boundary, but is there an unofficial one? ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/2 "2001-11-26T13:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > **…Second, where does upstate New York begin?..** Depends where you live. From some friends in NYC and the Island, “Upstate” was anything north of New Rochelle. For me, I consider an imaginary extension of the southern border (straight line along the PA border) to be the demarcation of upstate/downstate. As far as the first, can’t answer that: I was an “upstater” and have been to “The City” only twice in my life. ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/3 "2001-11-26T13:09:40Z")
Yes, as much as they’ll deny it (and I once dated a girl who swore up and down that her Brooklyn was NOT part of Long Island) Brooklyn and Queens are very firmly part of Long Island. To say, “I work in Queens, and live out on Long Island” is just a New York thing. Upstate is probably best defined as anything north of the Cross County Parkway in Westchester, though I’m sure someone will be along to offer their idea of the location. I offer the parkway, as once you get past that, you start glimpsing the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/4 "2001-11-26T13:19:20Z")
Just to clarify, Kings County shares the same boundries as Brooklyn Boro. What the difference is between the Boro government and the couty government I don’t know. The “Long Island” this is a New York thing, geographically, both Queen and Kings Counties are on Long Island, there’s even a Long Island City in one of those boros. Upstate NY . . don’t know if this source is the definitive authority on the subject, but it lists and shows the “Nine Regions” of Upstate NY. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/5 "2001-11-26T13:34:13Z")
Brooklyn and Queens are geographically part of Long Island, but they’re politically and culturally part of New York City. When a New Yorker says “Long Island,” he means Nassau and Suffolk County. Same thing for a Long Islanders. Upstate is usually considered by New Yorkers anything north of Westchester County. Even if you live in the northernmost reaches of Westchester, you aren’t considered upstate. However, there is no definite dividing line. I’m a former Long Islander and current upstater. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/6 "2001-11-26T16:09:56Z")
Part of it is a cultural thing; Brooklyn and Queens residents often don’t want to associate themselves with the “Long Island” stereotype of rich yuppies (of which there are many in Nassau and Suffolk) so they pretend that Long Island is really something different. Of course Long Island The Island actually comprises Suffulk, Nassau, Queens and Kings counties. Long Island the Culture comprises only Suffolk and Nassau counties. I don’t know if there is any actual difference between Kings County and Brooklyn, I’m pretty sure they’re exactly the same thing, Brooklyn being a less official name. IMO, “Upstate” is everything north of Westchester County. Useless fact: New York City is the only incorporated governmental body in New York besides the State itself that has jurisdiction over something larger than a single county. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/7 "2001-11-26T16:26:17Z")
Brooklyn and Queens are geographically part of Long Island, but since they are politically part of New York City, the term “Long Island” has long since been used to refer only to Nassau and Suffolk counties. Upstate New York: To a resident of New York City, that’d probably refer to anything west of the Hudson river, or anything east of the Hudson but North of the Bronx-Westchester border. Most others would probably exclude Westchester from the category of “Upstate” as well. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/8 "2001-11-26T16:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*Part of it is a cultural thing; Brooklyn and Queens residents often don’t want to associate themselves with the “Long Island” stereotype of rich yuppies \*\* That’s the stereotype?! The stereotype I’ve always had of Long Island (excluding the Hamptons) is that of Staten Island with malls – many, many malls. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/9 "2001-11-26T16:57:14Z")
DAMMIT!!! :mad: I’d fuck up a wet dream today . . here’s that link: [http://www.roundthebend.com/](http://www.roundthebend.com/) Now, they list “Hudson Valley” as the southernmost region . .according to the Official New York State website, here is where Hudson Valley is located: [http://www.iloveny.state.ny.us/search/regions\_index.asp](http://www.iloveny.state.ny.us/search/regions_index.asp) THEREFORE: IF YOU BUY THAT BOTH WEBSITES ARE ON THE SAME PAGEM UPSTATE NEW YORK STARTS NORTH OF THE BRONX. I’ve been there . . .Upstate New York is MUUUCH further up! 🙂 Happy to confuse the clarity! ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/10 "2001-11-26T17:24:34Z")
Friedo wrote: _I don’t know if there is any actual difference between Kings County and Brooklyn, I’m pretty sure they’re exactly the same thing, Brooklyn being a less official name._ No, Brooklyn is a very official name. It’s just a question of who is doing the naming. You provided your own clue to the issue later in your post with this: _Useless fact: New York City is the only incorporated governmental body in New York besides the State itself that has jurisdiction over something larger than a single county._ NY counties, you see, are _state_ designations and boroughs are _city_ designations; Kings County and Brooklyn Borough just happen to be coterminous (love that term). So when the City Council passes a bill/ordinance/whatever it will contain the term Brooklyn. When the state legislature passes a bill/ordinance/whatever, it will contain Kings County. A common goof you will always hear is the “Brooklyn D.A.” or the “Brooklyn State Court House.” There’s no such thing – it should be Kings County, not Brooklyn, because the courts are state offices. Incidentally, there’s no reason that boroughs must be coterminous with counties. As you can read in the Queens Postal Address thread, Queens County and Borough were not cotermious from 1898 - 1899. Also, Bronx Borough was part of Westchester County until around the first decade of the twentieth century. And Marble Hill Bronx/Manhattan is still in dispute according to research I’ve turned up. (Don’t get me started on that one.) ---
**Author:** ![Jimbrowski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9a140/32.png) [@Jimbrowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimbrowski)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/11 "2001-11-26T17:50:59Z")
New York geography is wildly misunderstood, by everyone! I grew up in North Carolina, went to college in Potsdam, NY. Visiting back in NC I would tell people “I go to college in New York,” typical replies were “Oh! Is the crime bad? What’s the subway like? Have you been mugged yet?” Outside of New York State people seem to think “New York” means “New York City”. I have lived in New York City for the past 10 years. Within New York City, people seem to think “New York” means “New York City”. Geography consists of “the City”, Long Guy Land, Joisey, Wes-chesta, and the ubiquitous “upstate”. Everything else is just “upstate”. Buffalo? Rochester? Syracuse? “Upstate.” (Lake Placid? “Is that in New York?” Yes. “Must be upstate.”) Spent my teens & early 20’s bouncing around NY State. Elsewhere in New York State the regions have their own unique identities which seem to escape most NY City dwellers: The Capital Region, Central New York, The North Country, Wine Country, The Finger Lakes, The Niagara Region, The Onondaga Nation, Fort Drum, etc, etc, etc. These regions hardly consider NY City to be the symbol of their state. (The above generalizations are: 1) meant to be humorous, 2) not 100% accurate, 3) and are not meant to insult the geographically challenged.) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/12 "2001-11-26T18:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > NY counties, you see, are _state_ designations and boroughs are _city_ designations; Kings County and Brooklyn Borough just happen to be coterminous (love that term). So when the City Council passes a bill/ordinance/whatever it will contain the term Brooklyn. When the state legislature passes a bill/ordinance/whatever, it will contain Kings County. A common goof you will always hear is the “Brooklyn D.A.” or the “Brooklyn State Court House.” There’s no such thing – it should be Kings County, not Brooklyn, because the courts are state offices. > > Incidentally, there’s no reason that boroughs must be coterminous with counties. As you can read in the Queens Postal Address thread, Queens County and Borough were not cotermious from 1898 - 1899. Also, Bronx Borough was part of Westchester County until around the first decade of the twentieth century. And Marble Hill Bronx/Manhattan is still in dispute according to research I’ve turned up. (Don’t get me started on that one.) \*\* You are correct as usual **stuyguy**. BTW, here’s an excellent page showing some of the complex history of NYC geopolitics: [http://www.nygbs.org/info/articles/five\_boroughs.html](http://www.nygbs.org/info/articles/five_boroughs.html) ---
**Author:** ![screech-owl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@screech-owl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/screech-owl)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/13 "2001-11-26T18:13:15Z")
Anyone else mildly amused that **manhattan** hasn’t answered this question? ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/14 "2001-11-26T18:58:03Z")
As others have noted here, Brooklyn and Queens are, in fact, part of the Island of Long. But, as they are part of the City of NY, there is something of a distinction between them and “Long Island.” In fact, the only boro not on an island is The Bronnix. As far as where Upstate begins, that’s a trickier question. A lot of people who live in NYC actually think Yonkers is part of Upstate, but that’s an urban conceit. I live in Rockland County, which is west of the Hudson River and borders on New Jersey (from my house I can walk about ten minutes south and be in Montvale, NJ). But I don’t consider it Upstate by any means. In fact, most of Rockland, Westchester, Putnam and even Orange Counties are bedroom communities, with people enjoying suburban life while still able to work in the City That Never Schleps. As a side note, I went to college at SUNY/Fredonia, on the shores of Lake Erie, and when local students learned I was from downstate, they would always nod and say, “Long Island.” NO! There are recent settlements east of Buffalo and west of Manhattan, thank you very much. So the curse of regional thinking is widespread. According to people living in Queens, I live in cattle country upstate somewhere. To people living in Buffalo, I live in a concrete canyon or else in Levittown. There’s no in between. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/15 "2001-11-26T20:50:25Z")
Friedo wrote: _You are correct as usual stuyguy._ Thank you, but alas Friedo, my friend, I am not. My brain burped when I wrote this: _…Also, Bronx Borough was part of Westchester County until around the first decade of the twentieth century…_ I meant to say: …Also, Bronx Borough was part of **New York** County until around the first decade of the twentieth century… ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/16 "2001-11-26T21:17:50Z")
As already stated, if you live in Queens or Brooklyn you are part of NYC. Suffolk and Nassau are considered “Long Island” (where the FLIDS live). I know I live on Long Island (Queens) but there is a big difference between living on Long Island and living “out on the island”. I consider anything past The Bronx as “upstate” even though I know they all aren’t country folk. Just a question: If you live in Westchecter how do you refer to your geographical area? Since it isn’t in NYC and some of you don’t think you are “upstate” then where are you? I have friends who hate it when I say they live upstate but if it is not up state (from NYC) then where is it? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/17 "2001-11-26T21:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > My brain burped when I wrote this: > > _…Also, Bronx Borough was part of Westchester County until around the first decade of the twentieth century…_ > > I meant to say: > > …Also, Bronx Borough was part of **New York** County until around the first decade of the twentieth century… Well, you were _sorta_ right, in that the Bronx was in fact annexed from southern Westchester County first, then made into its own county and borough later. I think. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/18 "2001-11-26T21:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > Just a question: If you live in Westchecter how do you refer to your geographical area? Since it isn’t in NYC and some of you don’t think you are “upstate” then where are you? I have friends who hate it when I say they live upstate but if it is not up state (from NYC) then where is it? It’s just “from Westchester.” At least that’s what I said when I lived in various parts of the county. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/19 "2001-11-26T21:42:30Z")
Rockland county, where DAVEW0071 lives, is also usually just referred to as Rockland county, since it’s also in the not upstate/not The City/not Long Island limbo that Westchester’s in. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270/20 "2001-11-26T21:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\* > > It’s just “from Westchester.” At least that’s what I said when I lived in various parts of the county. \*\* Yes, I hear that a lot too. So, I suppose that you can divide New York state into four basic regions: (1) upstate; (2) City; (3) Long Island; (4) Westchester. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-new-york-geography-questions/95270.md?page=2)