# More on Caster Semenya – it's all getting very legal (Updates June 4 and 10) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334 "2019-06-10T21:07:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/1 "2019-06-10T21:07:55Z")
Further news on the status of Caster Semenya in particular and intersex [XY female] athletes in general. This is a follow up to an [earlier thread.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=874895) Today Caster Semenya was named in South Africa’s preliminary squad for the World Championships in Qatar later this year. This follows on from last week’s court ruling (which I missed) in which Switzerland’s federal supreme court granted a temporarily suspension of an IAAF ruling to restrict testosterone levels in female runners (which the IAAF say can be achieved simply with oral contraceptives). In effect, the suspended rule appears to target XY female athletes. > [@](#): > > The IAAF says it will seek a “swift reversal” of the decision that allows Olympic 800m champion Caster Semenya to temporarily compete without taking testosterone-reducing medication. Remarkably: > [@](#): > > The IAAF - the governing body of world athletics - said the federal supreme court’s decision was made without its knowledge, and that it was only told of the order on Tuesday [June 4]. > > It therefore “did not have the chance” to explain why the ruling “should remain in force and applicable to all affected athletes while the appeal is pending”. (If anyone can explain why a Swiss court is making enforceable decisions in respect of a Monaco based organisation and a South African athlete, that would be nice to know too.) Report of the squad announcement [here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48586562) Report of the court decision/IAAF reaction [here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48520775) In defence of it’s position, the IAAF make a number of points, only one of which I’ll quote (as we’re getting a bit quote-heavy): > [@](#): > > “Regulations [on athletes with differences of sexual development] are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and Cas agreed.” FWIW, as I have said before, I’m inclined to agree with them; but only because I can’t see a better solution - nothing about this is simple. It’s a proper can of worms. And things appear to be heading towards a potentially rather explosive climax. j ---
**Author:** ![NorthernStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c77e96/32.png) [@NorthernStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NorthernStar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/2 "2019-06-10T22:08:55Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > (If anyone can explain why a Swiss court is making enforceable decisions in respect of a Monaco based organisation and a South African athlete, that would be nice to know too. This one is easy. The CAS, despite its “global” nature, is essentially a Swiss court of arbitration. In certain cases (such as when the award appears to be in violation of human rights or other fundamental questions of public policy), its awards can be set aside (suspended) or overruled by a Swiss court of general jurisdiction. Similar “backups” re: enforcement of arbitration awards are in place in many other countries. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/3 "2019-06-10T22:46:47Z")
We swiss are the most neutral people in the world. Drives my Scandinavian wife crazy when I give her two equal options for dinner out, and add “Or we could go somewhere else”. But I’ve long thought about this as a thorny part of the ‘trans issue’, how do we handle female athletes that were born (and trained) as males? From the first thread: > [@](#): > > And isn’t there an issue of trying to balance human rights against fairness in sport? It sounds like an impossible task. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/4 "2019-06-11T08:58:19Z")
Yes I think it is ultimately an impossible task to balance the rights of all groups of athletes involved. If there is no clear-cut definition of “female” (and there doesn’t seem to be) and Semenya is not required to medically reduce her testosterone (which this ruling appears to uphold) then how will it be possible to mandate surgical procedures and hormone treatment for males transitioning to females? The best you can hope for is probably a fuzzy line that everyone sort-of accepts and hope that there are no more hard cases that push at those limits. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/5 "2019-06-19T01:39:59Z")
Minor bump to point out that the Court of Arbitration for Sport just released the full text of their 163 page decision on Ms. Semenya. Available [here](https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-_redacted_-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf). Some of it is redacted still. So far as I know, the [Swiss court ruling staying the CAS from acting on their decision](https://www.france24.com/en/20190613-semenya-swiss-court-denies-iaaf-request-reimpose-testosterone-rules) is still in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/6 "2019-06-19T15:00:13Z")
And here’s the [BBC news story](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48678230) which covers it. > [@](#): > > Caster Semenya says athletics’ world governing body “used” her like “a human guinea pig” by insisting she takes medication to control her testosterone… > > …The two-time Olympic champion says the drugs made her feel “constantly sick” and have “unknown health consequences”. > > “I will not allow the IAAF to use me and my body again,” said Semenya… (NB: it is stated elsewhere that the drugs in question are (can be?) oral contraceptives.) It’s getting very hard to see how this can end well. j ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/7 "2019-06-19T15:28:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Yes I think it is ultimately an impossible task to balance the rights of all groups of athletes involved. > > If there is no clear-cut definition of “female” (and there doesn’t seem to be) and Semenya is not required to medically reduce her testosterone (which this ruling appears to uphold) then how will it be possible to mandate surgical procedures and hormone treatment for males transitioning to females? > > The best you can hope for is probably a fuzzy line that everyone sort-of accepts and hope that there are no more hard cases that push at those limits. I think there’s going to have to be some kind of line defined at some point; I mean, to take it to the absolute extreme, what happens if Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson comes out as a trans woman and wants to compete in women’s weightlifting? We’d consider her a woman in every way but physical- she’d be a 6’9" 425 lb colossus who would beat the majority of world-class strongmen, much less strongwomen. I can’t imagine that the most fervent trans rights supporters and women’s sports advocates would think that it would be fair to the other women. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/8 "2019-06-19T15:38:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think there’s going to have to be some kind of line defined at some point; I mean, to take it to the absolute extreme, what happens if Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson comes out as a trans woman and wants to compete in women’s weightlifting? We’d consider her a woman in every way but physical- she’d be a 6’9" 425 lb colossus who would beat the majority of world-class strongmen, much less strongwomen. I can’t imagine that the most fervent trans rights supporters and women’s sports advocates would think that it would be fair to the other women. Given the direction of travel on this I’m not sure any sporting organisation could require them to “prove” they were a woman (whatever that means) or require any surgery or any hormone treatment at all. Or at least, wherever such a line is drawn it appears open to challenge and I don’t know where it leads. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-on-caster-semenya-its-all-getting-very-legal-updates-june-4-and-10/835334/9 "2019-07-30T21:40:39Z")
\*\*\*\*[Latest update](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/49169509): > [@](#): > > Caster Semenya says she will not defend her World Championship 800m title in September after a setback in her challenge to the restricting of testosterone levels in female runners… > > …a ruling allowing her to compete has now been overturned. j