# More PC (or more accurate) phrase for 'Indian Giver'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2007, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725 "2007-05-04T07:58:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/21 "2007-05-04T22:10:11Z")
I think you’ve got the wrong idea about potlatching. Potlatching is about giving gifts away to prove your status. Giving gifts is the mark of a high-status person, recieving gifts is the mark of a low-status person. Gift givers are patrons, gift takers are clients. Ever see the phenomenon of a couple of high-testosterone guys arguing over who has the privilege of paying the bill at a restaurant? Same impulse. The guy who pays the bill, or gives the big tip, shows his superior status. Of course, in a culture that practices potlatching, if you were in need later, you could accept gifts from other people…but that would show that you had lost status. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/22 "2007-05-04T22:15:02Z")
[QUOTE=DocCathode] I thought it was. Indian summer is a false summer not as good as the real thing. [/QUOTE] Gosh, I hate to say it but your comprehension of this word might differ distinctly from the original meaning - an Indian Summer is a late-autumn summer, as might be experienced in India. It’s a British Raj word. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/23 "2007-05-04T22:24:07Z")
“The earliest known use was by French American writer St. John de Crevecoeur in rural New York in 1778.” > **[Indian summer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_summer)** > > An Indian summer is a period of unseasonably warm, dry weather that sometimes occurs in autumn in temperate regions of the northern hemisphere. Several sources describe a true Indian summer as not occurring until after the first frost, or more specifically the first "killing" frost. > The late 19th-century lexicographer Albert Matthews made an exhaustive search of early American literature in an attempt to discover who coined the expression. The earliest reference he found dated to 1851. He also... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/24 "2007-05-04T22:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Gosh, I hate to say it but your comprehension of this word might differ distinctly from the original meaning - an Indian Summer is a late-autumn summer, as might be experienced in India. It’s a British Raj word. [/QUOTE] Seems to me highly unlikely, since the first use apparently was in the 1770s in New York state. [This site](http://www.answers.com/topic/indian-summer) compiles various theories, the idea that it refers to the Indian subcontinent rather than American Indians being one. But the date would seem to preclude that. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/25 "2007-05-04T23:57:45Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] But the date would seem to preclude that. [/QUOTE] Well, not really, since English traders were in India in the 16th C. Though I concede that wouldn’t be definable as “Raj”. It does seem strange to me that a meteorological phenomenon would be attributed to an ethnic group, rather than a sub-continent that actually experiences such a thing, but we’ve no way of proving or disproving it, and the first reference is American, so I’ll allow that I quite possibly am wrong. However, regardless of its provenance, the definition of Indian Summer as “a false summer not as good as the real thing” is definitely not the common usage. ---
**Author:** ![outside\_artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@outside\_artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outside_artist)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/26 "2007-05-05T00:42:15Z")
So, ‘Native American-Giver’ doesn’t work for you? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/27 "2007-05-05T13:31:20Z")
I have reservations about this whole endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/28 "2007-05-05T13:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] However, regardless of its provenance, the definition of Indian Summer as “a false summer not as good as the real thing” is definitely not the common usage. [/QUOTE] Indian summer as a false summer is very definitely the usage in these parts. It is the last summery spell in the fall-- a false promise, if you will, of warm weather. So it is easy to see how it could be related to “Indian giver.” It is something that is given, almost teasingly, and then taken back. How does the weather on the Indian subcontinent relate to a temperate-zone late autumn warm spell? That makes no sense to me. I think you’re going to have to concede on this one **jimm**. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/29 "2007-05-05T17:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] However, regardless of its provenance, the definition of Indian Summer as “a false summer not as good as the real thing” is definitely not the common usage. [/QUOTE] It certainly is in the US. Since all the early examples of use are from the US, that’s the mostly likely meaning. [QUOTE=jjimm] an Indian Summer is a late-autumn summer, as might be experienced in India. [/QUOTE] Except that India doesn’t have “late-autumn summers.” [Weather in India](http://www.indianchild.com/climate_india.htm) > [@](#): > > Indian seasons : It is possible to identify seasons, although these do not occur uniformly throughout South Asia. The Indian Meteorological Service divides the year into four seasons: the relatively dry, cool winter from December through February; the dry, hot summer from March through May; the southwest monsoon from June through September when the predominating southwest maritime winds bring rains to most of the country; and the northeast, or retreating, monsoon of October and November. From my link, the India theory is as follows: > [@](#): > > It may be of Asian Indian, rather than North American Indian, origin. H. E. Ware, an English writer, noted that ships at that time traversing the Indian Ocean loaded up their cargo the most during the “Indian Summer”, or fair weather season. Several ships actually had an “I.S.” on their hull at the load level thought safe during the Indian Summer. If this is true, then the “Indian Summer” would refer to the extremely hot weather of March through May, and has nothing to due with warm weather in autumn. The India theory seems to me far-fetched at best. ---
**Author:** ![zelie\_zelerton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@zelie\_zelerton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zelie_zelerton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/30 "2007-05-05T17:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] It certainly is in the US. Since all the early examples of use are from the US, that’s the mostly likely meaning. Except that India doesn’t have “late-autumn summers.” [Weather in India](http://www.indianchild.com/climate_india.htm) From my link, the India theory is as follows: If this is true, then the “Indian Summer” would refer to the extremely hot weather of March through May, and has nothing to due with warm weather in autumn. The India theory seems to me far-fetched at best. [/QUOTE] I think you might have become confused about where the late-autumn was taking place. If there is an extended period of hot dry weather after the traditional time for the \*British \* summer (i.e. late autumn) then it is referred to as an Indian Summer. Indian summers being generally hot with little rainfall (albeit at a different time of year). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/31 "2007-05-05T18:52:40Z")
[QUOTE=zelie zelerton] I think you might have become confused about where the late-autumn was taking place. If there is an extended period of hot dry weather after the traditional time for the \*British \* summer (i.e. late autumn) then it is referred to as an Indian Summer. Indian summers being generally hot with little rainfall (albeit at a different time of year). [/QUOTE] I think you might have become confused about who said what earlier in the thread. 😉 **jjimm** was the one who said “an Indian Summer is a late-autumn summer, as might be experienced in India.” That is what I was responding to. I’m aware that the British use refers to a warm spell in autumn, which is good evidence that it is not derived from anything to do with India. Anyone who has actually experienced a “summer” in India would find little similarity between that and weather at any season in Britain, no matter how warm. While it is possible that “Indian Summer” may have been used on occasion by the British to refer to the dry season weather _in India_, I think the usage to refer to an autumn warm spell _in Britain_ almost certainly derives from its similar use in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725/32 "2007-05-05T19:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] A renegger. [/QUOTE] Reneger, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-pc-or-more-accurate-phrase-for-indian-giver/402725.md?page=1)