# More Proof That Global Warming Is Toast **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742 "2008-10-20T15:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/21 "2008-10-20T18:58:35Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I don’t know what to believe anymore. There’s a whole money making industry behind AGW… FYI, there isn’t much money behind solar physics… ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/22 "2008-10-20T19:02:07Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s the difference? [/QUOTE] Proof is what all the little bits of evidence are supposed to point to. So the thread title would have been much more accurate had it read “More _Evidence_ That Global Warming Is Toast”, and finished with a question mark. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/23 "2008-10-20T19:06:00Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Because the case for global warming (#3) is quite weak on close inspection. I’ve laid out my case for this on my blog You’ve laid out your case in countless SDMB threads. It **never** holds up on close inspection. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/24 "2008-10-20T19:06:24Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > There’s a whole money making industry behind AGW Cite? How do all those guys at the EPA, USDA, NASA, the Federal Climate Change Program, and the Department of Energy profit on AGW? With 500,000 climate scientists in the US, if the theory was all that holey, you’d think that you’d be able to find more than a couple guys on the internet who everybody serious ignores. There’s going to be a lunatic fringe in every area of science who spout nonsense, but I’ll bet you that per capita there’s as many guys in the climate sciences saying that AGW is fake, as you’ll find in physics who say that the Earth is hollow (or whatever the popular physics nuttery is.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/25 "2008-10-20T19:09:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You’ve laid out your case in countless SDMB threads. It **never** holds up on close inspection. That’s nonsense. But please feel free to point out the weak link in the argument I have laid out. If there really is a fatal flaw, I will change my mind – just like I switched from being a believer to a skeptic. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/26 "2008-10-20T19:21:22Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Cite? > > How do all those guys at the EPA, USDA, NASA, the Federal Climate Change Program, and the Department of Energy profit on AGW? With 500,000 climate scientists in the US, if the theory was all that holey, you’d think that you’d be able to find more than a couple guys on the internet who everybody serious ignores. > > There’s going to be a lunatic fringe in every area of science who spout nonsense, but I’ll bet you that per capita there’s as many guys in the climate sciences saying that AGW is fake, as you’ll find in physics who say that the Earth is hollow (or whatever the popular physics nuttery is.) You want a cites for companies that are making money from the AGW scare? Are you serious? Start with Al Gore and everyone who’s selling carbon credits or carbon offsets? How many cites should I provide, 100? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/27 "2008-10-20T19:23:40Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Second. I don’t know what to believe anymore. There’s a whole money making industry behind AGW and it seems to me that every now and again someone comes along and pokes holes in the theory. Then anyone who agrees that AGW could be completely wrong gets skewered for siding with the disbelievers. > > I’m open for debate, but am very skeptical that we have all the evidence on hand to proclaim that humans are responsible for any, ANY increase in average global temperatures. Which money making industry is larger out of interest? The Oil and Coal industry or those that have some hope of making a profit on reducing carbon emissions and producing alternate and greener energy? I don’t think it can be repeated enough, you can believe what you want. However, if the thousands of scientist studying AGW have found enough evidence to convince the bulk of scientists that Global Warming is being contributed to by human actions then a few hundred dissenters who mostly are not studying the issue are not likely to be given much weight in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/28 "2008-10-20T19:27:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard there’s a spot that gets it hot, but we haven’t been to it. Well, it is a **G** -type star. Quoth **Leaffan** : > [@](#): > > There’s a whole money making industry behind AGW There’s certainly a huge money-making industry trying to silence talk of AGW: Most of the fossil fuel companies, for starters. And there is also a money-making industry, albeit a much smaller one, with the goal of finding out the truth about man’s impact on the environment (NASA, the NOAO, etc. are part of this). But I know of no industry, large or otherwise, that has a vested interest in finding that AGW is true regardless of whether it is or not. Could you give an example of any company in this industry? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/29 "2008-10-20T19:39:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, it is a **G** -type star. > > Quoth **Leaffan** :There’s certainly a huge money-making industry trying to silence talk of AGW: Most of the fossil fuel companies, for starters. And there is also a money-making industry, albeit a much smaller one, with the goal of finding out the truth about man’s impact on the environment (NASA, the NOAO, etc. are part of this). But I know of no industry, large or otherwise, that has a vested interest in finding that AGW is true regardless of whether it is or not. Could you give an example of any company in this industry? One example? I’m sure I could find 100. But [here’s](http://zerofootprint.net/) one. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/30 "2008-10-20T19:42:26Z")
**Brazil** , I’d draw a distinction between CAGW and AGW. I think there’s been adequate evidence to suggest that something real, with a substantial anthropogenic component, and with potential significant deleterious effects, is present. I don’t yet think proof is in place for catastrophic effects – they’re based on modeling which may or may not be valid. I’d love to see your reaction to that distinction, if you don’t mind. **Leaffan** , there’s a standard bit of sardonic scoffing any time a Hollywood star speaks out on matters political or environmental, to the effect that they may be celebrities, but are not experts on the subject. (Not always valid, by the way; remember the Hedy Lamarr effect.) I feel the same way about geologists being outspoken about astrophysics, metallurgists being outspoken about geophysics, etc. Expertise in one field does not translate to expertise in another, by and large. It may give some credence to _methodological_ criticism, but not necessarily to _predictive/interpretive_ criticism. A datum for your reference: I have a friend named Pembroke, from Nova Scotia, who is a vehement Tory, to the extent he has been a Canadian Bush supporter. His wife is from Nunavik (sp.? - Inuit area of QC, as opposed to Nunavut), and they and their children lived there several years before moving to NS a year or two ago. According to him, _the permafrost is melting_ in areas that were frozen year-round according to both the oldest living memory and preserved tradition. Though hardly an environmental nut – far from it – he is convinced that AGW is real and needs to be seriously addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/31 "2008-10-20T19:49:50Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I think global warming and the whole environmental movement of late has been a fraud: a complete fraud. (Hey, a thread wherein I get to defend AGW!) You may think that, but the anti-AGW crowd have yet to prove their case. I’m thoroughly sceptical about AGW, but that cuts both ways. There is a significant lack of actual hard science tha proves the basics behind AGW, but that doesn’t mean that AGW isn’t real, just that it hasn’t been proven to be real. I don’t think anyone doubts that the northern hemisphere has warmed considerably over the past few hundred years, but to assert that that rise is due to man is very presumptuous; it’s equally presumptuous to assert the contrary. We simply don’t _know_. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/32 "2008-10-20T19:50:08Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > One example? I’m sure I could find 100. But [here’s](http://zerofootprint.net/) one. I’ll repeat: Which money making industry is larger out of interest? The Oil and Coal industry or those that have some hope of making a profit on reducing carbon emissions and producing alternate and greener energy? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/33 "2008-10-20T20:10:44Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I’ll repeat: Which money making industry is larger out of interest? The Oil and Coal industry or those that have some hope of making a profit on reducing carbon emissions and producing alternate and greener energy? The oil companies have about a 150 year head start, so the answer is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/34 "2008-10-20T20:13:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Brazil** , I’d draw a distinction between CAGW and AGW. I think there’s been adequate evidence to suggest that something real, with a substantial anthropogenic component, and with potential significant deleterious effects, is present. I don’t yet think proof is in place for catastrophic effects – they’re based on modeling which may or may not be valid. I’d love to see your reaction to that distinction, if you don’t mind. I agree that based on theoretical calculations, there is a good chance that increased CO2 will produce modest warming. I believe that Richard Lindzen has estimated it at 1C for a doubling of CO2. Note that temperatures have increased by about that amount since the Little Ice Age ended without causing harmful effects, as far as anyone knows. I doubt that there’s enough data to empirically confirm that a Lindzenesqe warming has taken place. Does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/35 "2008-10-20T20:14:30Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The oil companies have about a 150 year head start, so the answer is obvious. So don’t you think if it was really just a conspiracy to make money that the oil companies would have already fought this down. That they are throwing money against this and still losing the debate should tell you about the overall scientific community that studies AGW are finding compelling evidence and trends. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/36 "2008-10-20T20:31:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That’s nonsense. But please feel free to point out the weak link in the argument I have laid out. If there really is a fatal flaw, I will change my mind – just like I switched from being a believer to a skeptic. **jshore** has done it better than I can – e.g., in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=447471) thread. But [you never seem to acknowledge defeat.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=459127) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/37 "2008-10-20T20:40:20Z")
> [@Merkwurdigliebe](#): > > Why are there so many people out there who are trying to deny global warming? The answer was in the OP: > [@](#): > > Let’s **get on with business** and ditch all these scare tactics about reducing carbon footprints and other crap science. or, in other words, _serchez l’argent_ ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/38 "2008-10-20T20:49:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …you never seem to acknowledge defeat. How often does _anyone_ do that on the SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/39 "2008-10-20T20:54:04Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > How often does _anyone_ do that on the SDMB? It happens, I have seen it. But never from the poster in question. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742/40 "2008-10-20T20:58:43Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > So don’t you think if it was really just a conspiracy to make money that the oil companies would have already fought this down. That they are throwing money against this and still losing the debate should tell you about the overall scientific community that studies AGW are finding compelling evidence and trends. There doesn’t appear to be a debate. One side says it’s real, and anyone who opposes that side is summarily silenced or ridiculed. There appears to be a growing voice that opposes the AWG theory however. Environmentalists won’t believe anything sponsored by oil companies, naturally. Nasty oil. What good has it ever brought us? We should all be biking to work and eating vegetables grown within 100 miles of our house. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-proof-that-global-warming-is-toast/468742.md?page=3)