More Proof That Global Warming Is Toast

The distinction is clear enough as is. If necessary, one can define “significant negative side effects” more precisely. And I am happy to do so should the need arise.

Ok, then let’s assume for the sake of argument that the climate’s sensitivity to CO2 is 0.0001 degrees Celcius for a doubling of CO2. That would satisfy your criteria that “greenhouse gas emissions increase the planet’s average temperature.” Agreed?

And what about someone doesn’t believe in any particular negative feedback? They simply don’t believe that the warming caused by CO2 will be amplified by positive feedback.

You are assuming that recent warming is predominantly man-caused.

I disagree. I don’t think this is even known today. In any event, I am seriously skeptical of your claim. Please give me a cite from at least 20 years ago which shows that “warming of the last century or so is not small compared to natural variations on the same time scale.”

Sure, why don’t you do that? Perhaps I’m the only one, but I’m not seeing the difference between “significant negative effects” and “extreme misfortune.” As an aid, I posted the potential effects of global warming at different temperature increase levels above. It would be helpful to know which, if any, you would define as a catastrophe. It’s been months since I first heard the term from you, and I still don’t know what it means to you.

And if we assume corn syrup is the same as crack cocaine, then Warren Buffet becomes Pablo Escobar.

Your suggested hypothetical sensitivity is 4 orders of magnitude below the low range of potential sensitivities!

I don’t see how such a position could possibly be sustained with any consideration for evidence. Is there evidence that makes you believe there is no such thing as positive feedback?

You have confused assumptions with consequents.

The logic works this way:
If the recent warming is not small compared to natural variation over the same time scale, then it is possible the recent warming is predominantly man-caused.

Not the other way around.

From: Hansen et al. 1981. Climate impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Science v. 213, no. 4511, p. 964.
Comparing this statement to data collected since the statement was made in 1981:

The 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly in 1981 was 0.1444°C.

The 1σ level in the 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly was passed in 1988, with a 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly of 0.263°C. Exactly 20 years ago.

The 2σ level in the 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly was passed in 1996 with a 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly of 0.3952°C.

Data used to calculate the 5-year smoothed average can be found at the National Climatic Data Center.

Are you sure you’re not on my side? Are we in cahoots to make this look easy?

For the sake of argument, I will define “significant negative effects” as an increase of 10% or more in deaths, injuries, or extinctions due to weather.

So what? Your claim is as follows:

An increase of 0.0001C in the planet’s average temperature qualifies as a an increase in the planet’s average temperature, no?

Or are you giving up on your claim now?

I’m not sure what you are asking here. The burden of proof is firmly on the warmists to demonstrate that any warming due to CO2 will be amplified by water vapor feedback. Given that the case has not been satisfactorilly made, I don’t believe that any such positive feedback will take place.

Ok, I see that your claim about natural variation is limited to a comparison with a single period of 100 years. Essentially, you are saying that temperature increases between 1980 and the present are large compared to the variation found between 1880 and 1980.

Assuming that is correct it doesn’t demonstrate what I thought you were claiming. And it certainly doesn’t demonstrate that warming between 1980 and the present must be predominantly anthropogenic.

And is it correct? I’m not so sure. Here’s a challenge for you:

Compare chart a and chart b

Both represent graphs of temperature versus time with the same scaling (each line line on the vertical axis represents 0.2c; each line on the horizontal axis represents 5 years).

However, the absolute temperatures and times have been concealed. The question is this:

Does either graph represent a temperature increase which is out of line with the trends Hansen discusses?

Oh, and one other thing – a one sigma event is well within the range of natural variation.

Well, there’s your problem - the first 1σ “event” occurred in 1983 with a temperature anomaly of 0.2716°C. The 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly is more interesting than individual events because it averages five years of temperature anomalies so that you get a smoothed trend of temperatures rather than being influenced by high and low outliers, such as the 1983 El Niño year. That’s why the 5-year smoothed temperature anomaly for 1983 was only 0.1513°C - it was smoothed out by averaging with the surrounding less extreme years.

Your statement implies that you believe the temperature trend is showing characteristics of random variation and not an upward trend - is this really what you believe or is this “natural variation” a red herring?

If it is what you believe, doesn’t it strain credulity to believe that the subsequent 2σ crossing in 1996, 3σ crossing in 1999, and 4σ crossing in 2003 are all part of random variation??

A far more rational skeptical position to take would be to admit that the temperature trend is upwards, and to claim that it is due to some factor other than greenhouse gases. Everything you posted up until post #144 is consistent with such a position - why change now?

This is exactly what it must feel like to work at Dunder-Mifflin.

Your question is a trick question, but the best part is that it isn’t a trick question in the way you think it is! :smiley:

Your two links lead to graphics only. I cannot perform any statistical analysis on the graphs, only on the data that originated those graphs. Unless you link to the data those graphs are derived from, your question is unanswerable by me, you, or anyone else.

I’m confused. Are you still talking about trends? Or about absolute temperatures?

My statement implies no such thing. It was a “by the way” that I threw in to show that whatever the statistical signficigance of recent temperature trends, your original claim was incorrect on its face.

Your original claim was, in essence, that it was “known for decades” that recent temperature increases were way out of line compared to past changes in temperature. As proof, you cited a paper and data which indicated that 20 years ago, we had a rate of temperature increase at the 1 sigma level. Sorry, but a 1-sigma rate of increase is not out of line with history.

The comment you were responding to was made simply to show that your claim was essentially incorrect. If you want to know my position, please just ask it rather than inventing a position.

That’s incorrect because you can see with your eyeballs that the rates of increase depicted are roughly the same. I don’t need a measuring tape or a statistical analysis to know that men are, on average, taller than women.

But anyway the data represented are apparently from the HADCrut3 global monthly mean temperature anomaly series. One graph is from 1895 to 1946; the other is from 1957 to 2008. Knock yourself out. (Do you want me to find a link for you?)

In any event, getting back to the issue that sparked this exchange, it seems that you (wevets) no longer dispute that conceptually, it is worthwhile to draw a distinction between (1) anthropogenic global warming which is not amplified and therefore is unlikely to have signficiant negative effects; and (2) anthropogenic global warming which is amplified by positive feedback and is much more likely to engender signficiant negative effects.

I say this in part because it would appear you are no longer defending the following claim, which you made earlier:

No, I think he’s saying that if it’s not amplified by feedback, it will still have significant negative effects, it will just take longer to get there. But he can correct me if I’m mistaken.

Sorry for the belated reply, I’ve been caught up in the election hullabaloo. :slight_smile:

Getting back into this, I don’t have any idea how you got the idea that I’d backed away from my statement. None of my posts give any hint to backing away from my statement and I do not back away from it. In fact, I will say it again:

If greenhouse gases increase the planet’s temperature, you will still have to consider curtailing emissions.

There is enough CO[sub]2[/sub] locked up in geological deposits of coal, oil, natural gas, and to put the atmospheric concentration of CO[sub]2[/sub] at 1000 ppmv – over three times the pre-industrial level of 280 ppmv. Most of the numbers you see regarding global warming are concerned with a doubling of CO[sub]2[/sub] concentration, because that can be expected to happen in the time range 2040-2060. However, if you are not concerned with near-term global warming, sometime in the 23rd century, atmospheric concentrations of CO[sub]2[/sub] could have tripled. The relationship between [CO[sub]2[/sub]]* and temperature is not necessarily linear. In other words, if a doubling of [CO[sub]2[/sub]] leads to a worldwide average temperature increase of 1°C (which is where perhaps the most skeptical of all climate scientists would put it) – then a tripling of [CO[sub]2[/sub]] could lead to a worldwide average temperature increase of 3°C or of 9°C, which would be bad, to put it mildly.

MrDibble is essentially correct – it may not occur for a long time in the future, but once that [CO[sub]2[/sub]] has been reached, it’s not going to go away easily or quickly. Even if you don’t think the negative effects will show up at around 2050, the continued emission of carbon dioxide will eventually get to us.
You have suggested that we should consider an increase of 0.0001°C – but, we already know that (1) we wouldn’t be able to detect a temperature increase that small, so that is effectively the same as zero. (2) Even skeptics such as Richard Lindzen don’t seem to think anything below 1°C is realistic:

From: NASA’s webpage related to the Iris Hypothesis

Since I don’t put a lot of faith in the Iris Hypothesis, I don’t think 1°C has much chance of representing anything meaningful, and I think anything below 1°C is akin to talking about what the universe would be like if the speed of light were 22 miles an hour. In short, you’re asking me to put some sort of caveat on my statement that if warming is outside any realistic range we need not curtail greenhouse gas emissions. But I’m not interested in unrealistic ranges of warming any more than I’m interested in unrealistic estimates of the speed of light.

I don’t have time right now, but next post I’ll talk about your claims about whether averages are supposed to cross variances or not. This should be pretty interesting, because I haven’t yet said anything about why I think the current warming has strong anthropogenic causes, but you seem to disagree with me that there is even a warming trend. If you’d like to clarify what you meant by the 5 year average crossing the increasing lines of σ being within the range of natural variation, that would be welcome too.
*From here on I’ll use the brackets around CO[sub]2[/sub] to denote “concentration” as an abbreviation.)

Sheesh. That’s not what you said before. Here’s what you said before:

(my bolding)

There’s a world of difference between considering something and actually doing it.

Please stop weaseling.

As far as anyone knows, it’s logarithmic. What that means, in layman’s terms, is that there are diminishing effects. Not increasing effects as you seem to speculate.

So what? Your claim was that ANY increase requires that emissions be curtailed. You did not exclude increases which are undetectable.

But I’ll make things really easy for you:

The IPCC seems to claim that mankind’s emissions have increased global temperatures by approximately 0.6C over the past 50 or 60 years. So it would seem that an increase of 0.6C is arguably detectable.

So let’s assume for the sake of argument that the sensitivity of the climate system is such that an increase of CO2 to 1000ppm will cause a temperature increase of 1.0C. I realize you think this is too low, but please keep in mind your claim, which was, in essence, that ANY increase in global temperature due to greenhouse gas emissions requires that those emissions be curtailed.

If it turns out to be true that 1000ppm worth of CO2 will cause an increase in temperature of 1.0C, then there is little cause for concern about anthropogenic global warming due to CO2.

Which means that your claim was wrong. Please just admit it rather than trying to pretend that you claimed something different.

What you should have said is as follows:

But then it would have been obvious that you were not contradicting my original point.

Again, please stop weaseling and just admit that your point was wrong.

Just to follow up on this point, I’m not claiming that you used the word “ANY.” Simply that your claim covered all kinds of temperature increases, even small ones.

it’s a picayune difference. The sense of both sentences is the same, and you know it. Talk about weaselling…

:dubious: so no-one’s ever speculated about feedback or runaway greenhouse effects.

I’ve been perplexed for a little while about what to say.

Am I debating with:

  1. Someone who doesn’t think the Earth is warming?
  2. Someone who doesn’t think the warming is of sufficient concern or of the type which can be addressed by reducing human greenhouse gas emissions*?
  3. Someone that doesn’t fit into either above category?
    [sub]*Not counting flatulence. Everyone loves some good farting – I’m mostly talking about industrial and transportation emissions.[/sub]
    I understand the thing about CAGW – I don’t agree that it’s a useful term, but I understand it.

However, the implication that the Earth may not be warming at all – that current temperature trends are within observed random variation. That simply does not fit with what we know.

It’s useful to describe data in terms of different types of measurements – average, median, and mode are measurements of center of your data. They represent an attempt to describe the “middle” or the most common parts of your data set. Standard deviation and variance are measurements of spread - they’re an attempt to describe “how far is the data spread out?” “where is the rest of the data in relation to your measurements of center?” Measures of spread are essential in hypothesis testing, for example. If you know the general shape of your data’s distribution, you can calculate the percent chance that you would find a particular data point in a certain distribution with a known mean (mean = average) and spread.

Imagine a Texan firing away at a barn wall. After he shoots, you walk up to the inside barn wall and try to figure out what he’s shooting at. You could measure where the bullet holes are and then make a pretty good estimate of where our Texan has painted the face of Fred Phelps on his barn wall (I only give 50/50 odds on whether we could guess if he’s painted the face after or before he’s fired the shots though :wink: .)

You measure the center of his bullet holes, calculate how spread out they are, and that will give you a pretty good idea of where the face on the outside of his barn is (possibly even either how big the face is or whether he’s a good shot, but your estimate of one will depend on your estimate of the other.)

Now he fires off a new magazine of bullets. How would we decide if he’s aiming for a new face or at the same old face? I would find the center and spread of his new magazine’s worth of bullet holes, and compare that with the center and spread of his older set of bullet holes.

If I see that the measure of center of our Texan’s new group of bullets is further away than the measure of spread from the center of his old group of bullets, I’m going to be very suspicious that he’s shooting at his new face (or possibly that he’s drunk – we can’t discount that at this point.)

To put that into simple terms – when the mean of your new set is outside the variation of the old set, you should be suspicious of anyone who tells you you’re looking at random variation.

We have a data set of global temperature anomalies running for a bit over a century. We know its center and spread. In 1983, the individual data point for the global temperature anomaly (which itself is an average – but let’s not get all Babushka doll on this :wink: ) went over one standard deviation from the 1980 global temperature anomaly. That wasn’t a big deal. Each individual data point in the data set of temperatures centered around 0.1887°C with a standard deviation of 0.1°C has a 16% probability of being 0.2887°C and over, assuming the variation is normally distributed. What happened in 1983 was just random (not really – it was actually a powerful El Niño – but for the purposes of this line of thought it might as well be random) variation, and not even terribly improbable random variation.

In 1988, what happened was different from what happened in 1983. In 1988, the 5 year running mean of global temperature anomalies went outside the standard deviation of global temperature anomalies for the past century by 0.016°C**. Now recall that means are measures of center. Individual years would have a 16% probability of appearing more than one standard deviation above the 1980 value, but the 5 year running mean is different because it is a measure of center. We can’t easily calculate the probability of the 5 year running mean going outside the standard deviation, but we do know that it has to be less than 16%, because more than one year has to be outside the standard deviation.
[sub]It’s also important to recall that when talking about the 5 year running mean, it’s appropriate to re-center your standard deviation on the 5 year running mean of 1980 rather than using the individual data point for 1980. In this case, it doesn’t really matter because the individual data point for 1988 also is greater than one standard deviation above the individual data point for 1980.[/sub]
If we really want a number to attach to that probability (and I like quantifying things,) we could look for the set of five years that produced the 1988 five year running mean. We can also look at the first set of five years that were all at least one standard deviation higher – that occurred from 1997 to 2001. To produce the 1988 five year running mean, three of the five years (1987, 1988, and 1990) were above the 1σ level for the five year running mean. The probability of seeing this in a normally distributed data set centered around 0.1444°C with a standard deviation of 0.1°C
* is 0.3%. Not 3%, 0.3%. The probability of seeing the 1997-2001 temperatures in a normally distributed data set centered around 0.1444°C with a standard deviation of 0.1°C*** is 0.01%. My natural response is to say we’re not looking at a data set normally distributed around 0.1444°C – we’re looking at a data set with an upward trend.
[sub]***A horrible Bayesian crime against nature, carefully phrased to avoid the non-independence of the measured data - for which R.A. Fisher would have me taken out and shot at dawn.[/sub] :wink:

Think back to our shooting Texan. He’s fired off a sequence of rounds, changed magazines, and fired off a second set. The midpoint of his second set of rounds has a probability of 0.3% - three times in a thousand – of appearing given the midpoint and spread of his first set of rounds. And yet here you are telling me it’s random variation:

No, it’s not random variation. Temperatures are increasing. You may not have noticed that I haven’t yet addressed at all why – the Texan could be changing targets or he could have chugged a six-pack of PBR between magazines, but there’s little point in discussing that unless we at least agree that the GW is happening. Once we agree on GW, only then does it make sense to talk about AGW (which I haven’t talked about yet) or “CAGW.”

Pointless pedantry. If you agree that greenhouse gases increase the planet’s average temperature, you need to curtail emissions at some point.

You can construct hypothetical worlds which alter fundamental characteristics of the planet such that the statement would not be true, but in the real world, where even a skeptic like Richard Lindzen agrees climate sensitivity to CO[sub]2[/sub] doubling is not less than 1°C, the statement is true.

Even in your hypothetical world, you’ve still left a possibility that the statement would be true. For it to be certainly false, you would have to specify that:

  1. Climate sensitivity to CO[sub]2[/sub] doubling is less than 1°C
  2. Climate sensitivity to CO[sub]2[/sub] tripling is in a linear relationship or a relationship of decreasing slope to doubling.
  3. There is insufficient CO[sub]2[/sub] in fossil fuels to raise the atmospheric concentration of CO[sub]2[/sub] above 1000 ppm for long periods of time****.
    [sub]****There may be enough CO[sub]2[/sub] to raise atmospheric concentrations to 1400 ppm temporarily in the real world, but it wouldn’t stay that high.)[/sub]
    You only specified #1 in your post above. If you’re going to construct a hypothetical in which my statement is false, you could at least make sure it’s false!

Humorous, but completely devoid of a serious point.

If you were to say “President-Elect Obama will be the first black American President.” And my response was “that’s not true in the hypothetical case that both his parents were white.” You would know the mindset in which I am replying.

Since when? I agree that global surface temperatures have probably risen since 1950.

I believe that there is no need to curtail CO2 emissions because their likely effect on the climate will not be significantly negative. Clear enough?

This makes no sense at all. Natural temperature trends can and do occur. For example, the Little Ice Age.

You are making a rookie mistake here, which is to assume that temperature measurements for each give time period are independent – like firing a new round at a target.

The fact is that temperatures go through long term trends – with or without human intervention.

To illustrate, suppose you were some European monk and you had made temperature measurements before and during the Little Ice Age. You would see a clear shifting of the mean from one data set (the ‘before’ temperatures) to the next (the ‘during’ temperatures). By your logic, you would conclude that this could not possibly be the result of natural variation. And yet it is, as far as anyone knows.

It’s not pointless, because if CO2 emissions cause temperatures to increase only a little bit, then there’s no need to curtail CO2 emissions. Duh.

I’m a little confused – are you saying that even if Richard Lindzen is 100% correct and Hanson is wrong, we still need to curtail CO2 emissions?

No, that’s a bad analogy. Here’s a slightly better one:

Wevets: No matter what race Obama’s parents had been, he will be the first black president.

Brazil84: No, because If both of his parents had been white, then he would not be black.

Wevets: Don’t be silly and pedantic. Everyone knows that Obama’s father was black.


Actually, here’s an even better analogy:

Wevets No matter what the cause of infections, there’s no need for doctors to wash their hands between patients.

Brazil84: No, because if infections are caused by bacteria, then infections could be transmitted from patient to patient via the doctor’s hands.

Wevets: Don’t be silly and pedantic. Everyone knows that infections are cause by an imbalance of body humors. So there’s no need for doctors to wash their hands.

Going back to your Texan analogy, suppose that the Texan fires a group of 10 shots. One can compute a sample mean and sample standard deviation for the group of shots. If an 11th shot then falls 1 standard deviation from the mean, can one conclude that he must have been shooting at a different target? Of course not.

It was a scam from the start. Whenever there is money involved someone, like Gore, will try and exploite it. Scientists can be bought off to give their “expert” opinion.

The global climate has gone through changes that have spanned hundreds of years. We know this to be a fact. The History channel and a documentary on this last year which was very interesting.

The same History Channel that has declared the Shroud of Turin real, poltergeists real, mind reading real, the Exodus as having happened just like out of the Bible, and various other things that amazingly all happen to play to the viewership and continued debate on topics that have no evidence to support them?

But like I always, say, tell me how the thousands of guys at the Republican founded and historically principally Republican run EPA who live in a cube analyzing data somehow profit off of AGW?

Sage Rat,

Easy, easy. I only made a refernce to History channel regarding the subject matter. Never implied that History Channel was valid. Personally, I think they have catered to the lowest common denominator lately. Not sure how Ice Road Truckers has historcal significance so our opinions are not divergent.

However, I stand by my initial comment. In fact, scientists are now saying that we entered a period of global cooling. I dont have the time to quote all my references but if you are interested I am sure you can research it. Frankly, I could care less. However, I think any mechanic will tell you that the load that a catlaytic conver system puts on a car is highly unnecessary. All comes down to money…

Are you aware that catalytic converters are not meant to and do not reduce CO2 emissions?

What’s the point of mentioning the History Channel if you think they are a dubious reference?