# More Scripture Verses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936 "2000-05-30T20:39:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/1 "2000-05-30T20:39:05Z")
I know most everyone here has made up their mind about religion, but for anyone who’s interested in Christianity I’ve posted some verses: > [@](#): > > _1. And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 3. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle._ > > I Samuel 18 > > _15. And it came to pass in the morning, that Jonathan went out into the field at the time appointed with David, and a little lad with him. 16. But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter. 17. And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded._ > > I Samuel 20 > > _I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women._ > > II Samuel 1:1 > > _Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry._ > > 1 Corinthians 7:1 > > _If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother’s breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me._ > > Song of Solomon 8:1 > > _The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”_ > > Galatians 5:14 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Devil\_In\_Disguise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Devil\_In\_Disguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Devil_In_Disguise)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/2 "2000-05-30T20:47:40Z")
You want someone to convert to Christianity or homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/3 "2000-05-30T21:03:57Z")
Dammit, **Esprix** , that’s not funny! You know very well that there weren’t any homosexuals in the world prior to Stonewall! Why, back in Biblical times, only the Baal worshippers did any of that sick man-love stuff. None of the _good_ people in the Bible were that way! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/4 "2000-05-30T21:11:57Z")
You left out I Samuel 20:18–_And then David and Jonathan started gettin’ it on like crazed weasels._ At least that’s what it says in my translation. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Rousseau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Rousseau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rousseau)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/5 "2000-05-30T21:19:14Z")
See, here’s the thing about the Bible: 1. In it, you can find a passage to support any side of any issue known to man (it’s sort of like the Internet in that regard). 2. That said, quoting passages from the Bible is rather trite and meaningless, since the true meaning can only be derived by taking the entire thing in context (it’s sort of like your average GD post in that way). 3. If you really want to know what the Bible really says, learn an ancient language and get a hold of an ancient script. Shakespearean works don’t have the same meaning when they are translated into modern English (and hell, that’s essentially the same language). 4. That not always being practical, it’s a good idea if you’re going to read the Bible to get help from a Bible scholar, since they know more than you (it’s sort of like _Ulysses_ in that way). 5. Not everyone who holds, shall we say, “anti-Christian” views is a Bible scholar (though many purport to be). So, Esprix, I’m assuming that you’re not a Bible scholar, that you haven’t sought the counsel of one (if you did, you obviously didn’t learn anything), that you don’t speak Arabic or Latin, and that the text you quote from was translated centuries after the Bible was originally written. So please, spare me. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/6 "2000-05-30T21:23:25Z")
**Rousseau** , you could also post that response in the original [Scripture Verses](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=25590) thread, upon which this one is based. In fact, I really wish you would. Cuts both ways. Most Christians aren’t Bible scholars either. ---
**Author:** ![Rousseau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Rousseau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rousseau)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/7 "2000-05-30T21:26:55Z")
My bad. I didn’t even see that thread. I don’t hang around here much anymore, I just kind of poke my head in every now and then. Ask, and ye shall recieve. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/8 "2000-05-30T21:30:40Z")
Good point, Devil. What next, door to door gay recruiters? It is an unfortunate reflection on our sex obsessed culture that any affectionate human relationship is assumed to be sexual. Johnathon and David is an oft-cited example. Much too oft, for my money. J and D is a friendship story, much akin to Damon and Pythias. There might be a homoerotic tone to it, but there doesnt **have** to be. At the very least, you can bet yer bottom drachma that the people writing down that story into the Bible certainly didn’t think of it that way. They were clearly aware that homo behavior existed, they were rather stern about it. But just as clearly they didn’t think J and D was an example thereof. If the number of David’s wives and concubines, not to mention Bathsheba and Abshibag, is any indication, David was either hetero or wildly overcompensating. Which could be so, but simply isn’t likely. IMHO, the correct attitude regarding the sexuality of others is benign indifference, with perhaps just a little room allowed for prurient snickering. There is no need to justify your (presumably) behavior, or seek out historical precedent. As far as I’m concerned, stick it wherever its welcome, and more power to ya. Its none of my business, and I have no right to interfere. Its none of my business, and I don’t particularly want to hear about it. The sight of two men passionately kissing creeps me out. So what, I dont much care for yoghurt either. Not that theres anything wrong with that! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/9 "2000-05-30T21:35:36Z")
> [@](#): > > If the number of David’s wives and concubines, not to mention Bathsheba and Abshibag, is any indication, David was either hetero or wildly overcompensating. He couldn’t be bi, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/10 "2000-05-31T01:07:30Z")
altho esprix does take those verses out of context, there has been serious controversy over whether David & Jonathan were lovers. In “Don’t know much about the Bible”, the author discusses this, and concludes it is possible but unlikely. Esprix is not spouting some crazy radical theory, but one that has been debated seriously. I know Homosexual sex was against the Law, but so was Murder, and David did his share of that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/11 "2000-05-31T01:21:12Z")
**Rousseau** wrote: > [@](#): > > See, here’s the thing about the Bible: > > 1. In it, you can find a passage to support any side of any issue known to man (it’s sort of like the Internet in that regard). In fact, here’s a couple of passages that prove that half of all homosexuals will go to heaven: Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And this passage shows that it’s alright to kill children: Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. And this passage shows that inducing a miscarriage (effectively the same as giving an abortion) is a minor crime punishable by a fine: Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/12 "2000-05-31T01:27:09Z")
Evidently, I rock. Ask the Christian guy. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/13 "2000-05-31T01:50:08Z")
There is also some argument as to the nature of the friendship between Achilles and Patrocles in the Iliad. Some argue that they were more than friends. When Hector killed Patrocles in battle, Achilles killed Hector and desecrated the body (a really bad thing back then.) Achilles was moved to this extreme to avenge his lover. Others argue that Patrocles was just another side of Achilles’ character, perhaps his better side, which would explain their closeness. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/14 "2000-05-31T02:27:51Z")
When a gay pastor came to talk to my gay youth group, he told us that Jews were rarely, if ever, punished for having gay sex. The law was there so that when they captured Greeks and Egyptians, they could put them to death for that if for no other reason. I don’t know if it’s true, but it’s interesting, yes? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/15 "2000-05-31T13:02:04Z")
Matt, that seems highly unlikely, IMHO. I wouldn’t call myself an Old Testament scholar, but I have done a bunch of studying therein. Such a mechanism within the law seems contrary to (and inconsistent with) the rest of the Bible books. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/16 "2000-05-31T14:01:22Z")
Well this is fun! 😃 Let me start off by saying this is not any kind of personal slam against **jenkinsfan** or his [“Scripture Verses”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=25590) thread, but rather, it is a _response_ to it. Believe it or not, **Rousseau** pretty much hit it on the head (well, before he wet himself with indignation). After reading that thread I started this thread with these things in mind: [ul][li]Quoting a few Bible verses at someone will not change their mind about anything, either converting them to Christianity or changing their views on gay men and lesbians; the best it can do is preach to the converted.[/li] [li]You can make the Bible support any point of view you want by quoting a few verses (as **Johnny Angel** so ably pointed out here and others pointed out in the other thread, i.e., incest, violence, dietary restrictions, etc.).[/li] [li]The Bible is a living document, and as such is open to interpretation, as it has been since it was written, as it is now, and as it will be for as long as anyone bother to reads it. ( **Rousseau** also had a good point about going to the original source material.)[/li] [li]Not all Christians are crazed, radical, conservative zealots - some of them believe in more liberal, loving interpretations of the Bible and believe God can be many things to many people.[/li] [li]I was curious to see who’d take it seriously ( **Daniel** , **elucidator** ), who’d take offense ( **Rousseau** ), who’d wait to see ( **Devil** ), who’d think it was a joke ( **DoctorJ** ), and who’d see it as commentary ( **andros** ).[/li] [li]And, of course, I’ve got that Gay Agenda to promote. :rolleyes: [/ul][/li] For the record, I believe Jonathan and David _were_ lovers - that’s my interpretation. 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/17 "2000-05-31T19:08:31Z")
Esprix, I’m not complaining about this thread. After all, there’s a lot worse stuff you could say than Bible verses. God bless, jenkinsfan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/18 "2000-05-31T20:55:07Z")
**jenkinsfan** wrote: > [@](#): > > After all, there’s a lot worse stuff you could say than Bible verses. And also a lot better stuff, and that’s the point. Not everything in The Bible is good, nor is all that is good in it. ---
**Author:** ![Iolanthe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7bcc69/32.png) [@Iolanthe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iolanthe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/19 "2000-05-31T21:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > 3) If you really want to know what the Bible really says, learn an ancient language and get a hold of an ancient script. Shakespearean works don’t have the same meaning when they are translated into modern English (and hell, that’s essentially the same language). > \*\* _Essentially_ the same language? It is the same language! As far as I know, the dividing line between Middle English and Modern English was the invention of the Printing Press, which was more than 100 years before Shakespeare. You may not understand it at first reading (although many do) but if you listened in on a conversation of mine that contained lots of weird vocabulary words and inside jokes, you may not know what the hell I was talking about either. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So, Esprix, I’m assuming that you’re not a Bible scholar, that you haven’t sought the counsel of one (if you did, you obviously didn’t learn anything), that you don’t speak Arabic or Latin, and that the text you quote from was translated centuries after the Bible was originally written. So please, spare me. > \*\* Arabic and Latin huh. Might be a bit more useful if he spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Unless, of course, when you say Arabic, you’re referring to the Koran (or Qu’ran, damn this alphabet switching.) ---
**Author:** ![Iolanthe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7bcc69/32.png) [@Iolanthe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iolanthe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936/20 "2000-05-31T21:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > There is also some argument as to the nature of the friendship between Achilles and Patrocles in the Iliad. > > Some argue that they were more than friends. When Hector killed Patrocles in battle, Achilles killed Hector and desecrated the body (a really bad thing back then.) Achilles was moved to this extreme to avenge his lover. > > Others argue that Patrocles was just another side of Achilles’ character, perhaps his better side, which would explain their closeness. > \*\* From what I’ve seen about this particular question, it seems that Homer just had them as good friends (or, was never explicit - how much sex is there in the Iliad?) but that every later source on the Iliad assumed that they were lovers. This is the tack that Shakespeare takes (and Patrocles & Achilles are the only time he presents openly gay characters in his works.) I suppose it depends on your interpretation. I happen to agree with both of Scylla’s statements - that they were lovers, and that Patrocles was still the better half of Achilles. He’s continually shown as the gentler and more mature of the pair, but then I happen to root for the sidekicks more often than the hero. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-scripture-verses/20936.md?page=2)