# More sovereign citizen goodness **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478 "2015-07-29T14:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/41 "2015-07-29T22:00:31Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Don’t laugh, there _are_ some of them out there who cite the Magna Carta. Hmm… yes, but I believe “an eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth” was from the Code of Hammurabi so the police should really be enacting **harsher** historical punishments on them, if anything. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/42 "2015-07-29T22:50:23Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, yes, but my point was that for a group who claim that U.S. courts have no authority over them, they seem awfully willing to resort to the courts when it suits them. I, SaiNt C’aD, sov. cit., FotL, being of a human body, did not use the courts. However my legal strawman Saint Cad did and thus I do not bind myself to contracts under UCC 1-103 & 1-308. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/43 "2015-07-29T22:54:55Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Liens; in what jurisdiction? And to gain what? Representative tokens of a currency backed by a government whose authority you refuse to recognize? That same authority determines the value of the token. Okay, so now-a-days the tokens are mere electrical impulses that indicate numerical values with a currency symbol closely associated with them. But it’s a governmental system (network thereof) which supports the banks’ exchange of numerical value and governmental systems which facilitate the communication of those exchanges. :dubious: The AoC probably don’t recognize The Internet (wasn’t telegraphy new and telephony still pending?) so if you’re limiting your universe to only AoC -era artifacts, then there’s no way to give you any funds you might gain by filing a successful lein. For that matter, even in the most antiquated courthouse, your lein filing will be stored on a post-WWII artifact we generically call a “computer” which your worldview doesn’t seem to recognize… :smack: –G! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/44 "2015-07-30T01:58:11Z")
I love to laugh at the sovereign citizens, but I admit to feeling some sympathy for them. After all, a lot of the rhetoric of the Founding Fathers was based on social contract theory and the idea that the right to govern comes from the consent of the governed. In some ways they’re just taking the U.S. at its word. (And then naively and ridiculously misinterpreting that word.) And we all do that to some extent. If I were arrested, say, for refusing to consent to a search of my vehicle or for refusing to answer an officer’s questions, you better believe I’d argue with the cops (hopefully more politely and reasonably than these people, but still…) and I’d take it to court. And if I lost in court, I’d appeal. And even if the Supreme Court decided against me, I’d still argue that I _should_ have won, because I’m right, and we’re supposed to be a nation of laws. The difference, of course, is that unlike the sovereign citizens, I _am_ right about what the law says. At least, I think I am. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Room](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_room/32/5069_2.png) [@Little\_Room](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Room)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/45 "2015-07-30T02:00:22Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Don’t laugh, there _are_ some of them out there who cite the Magna Carta. “Hey, pig cop! According to the Code of Hammurabi, you have to stay 5 cubits away from me or your “superior” will boil you in pitch! KNOW YOUR LAWS!! KNOW YOUR LAWS!!” ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/46 "2015-07-30T02:29:26Z")
Personally I only recognize the authority of the Shadow Proclamation. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/47 "2015-07-30T03:25:10Z")
Rationalwiki presents the Freeman on the Land movements success stories: [link](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/48 "2015-07-30T03:46:30Z")
Yeah, the FBI takes this shit [seriously](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/04/14/857253/-FBI-warns-to-beware-of-The-Sovereign-Citizen-Movement). I have to commend the cop. He was so calm about the whole thing, didn’t even raise his voice. I wish I had that kind of patience! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/49 "2015-07-30T03:58:48Z")
(on a side note: I am now somewhat concerned at the apparent case that any Tom Dick or Harriet can file liens against my property just for the f\*&^ of it and nobody will look to see if they’re real. One would think at the very least one would have to produce a verifiable legal document proving one is empowered to file said lien…) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/50 "2015-07-30T04:08:00Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m not big on link bombing the dope, but [this is too good not to see](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB8katyjc9Q). > > eta: I know this is a couple years old but I’m not sure it’s ever made the rounds. Someone on reddit dug it up yesterday and now it’s on its course. You just made my day. That was the best entertainment I’ve had in years. Whatever network is showing COPS needs to just focus on police interaction with these loons. You know the ratings will skyrocket. > [@Loach](#): > > I saw this posted on another site recently. I agree with one of the posters there, her voice should be an arrestable offense. I found myself contemplating the most efficient ways of dispatching her from the Earth from which she is (according to her) more for the voice than for the lunacy. > [@steronz](#): > > I googled “article 4 free inhabitant” to see where that particular magic word may have come from, and found the site of one [Paul J Hansen](http://www.pauljjhansen.com/?p=374), a sovereign citizen type from Omaha who claimed (as of 2011): > > Seems like a good deal, and he’ll sell you all his secrets for only $45! > > Apparently one of his properties was[foreclosed on in 2013](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ne-court-of-appeals/1653492.html) for failure to pay taxes. And then he got tied up with none other than [Kent Hovind](http://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/03/day-hovind-trial/24341107/), although the conspiracy charges were ultimately dismissed without prejudice. > > Good stuff, good man to learn from. I’ve met that kind of loon. Here’s the kicker: said loon was in the United States Navy. I accidentally almost killed another friend when I, feigning seriousness, asked the loon, “But what about the fringed flags indicating admiralty courts?” Really, I shouldn’t’ve done that at dinner. Poor friend–the non-loon friend, that is–he didn’t enjoy having his coffee coming out his nose. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Sovereign citizens are pretty much my favorite type of lunatic. I’ve indicated this on this board before: I lump them all into one group. They’re just CTers (conspiracy theorists). They’ll either move onto another CT or add it to the répertoire. Sovereign Citizen, Freedmen of/on the Land, Birther, Truther, whatever…they’re pretty much a distinction without a difference to me. They’re in complete denial of reality. > [@Jragon](#): > > Wait… they’re invoking the authority of the **Articles of Confederation**? That’s pretty good. Even if it wasn’t considered outdated, it would only apply in the few states that actually adopted it. It would be like trying to invoke the Magna Carta because we’re a former British colony. I can’t remember who but I think he or she is still an active poster here. That poster is (was?) convinced the constitution of the United States is an illegal document. > [@Chimera](#): > > The “Sovereign Citizen” game is like a cargo cult of superstition and magic. The flawed assumption that if you do the right rituals, if you speak the right words, you can ‘magic’ the system and not be forced to play the game by the same rules as everyone else. The beauty of the video linked in the OP is that Screechette (“Screech” is already taken by that odd actor, who, come to think of it, is also incarcerated) couldn’t even get her “magic phrases” correct. Maybe she’ll have time in jail to practice. > [@Jragon](#): > > These Free Citizens would have better luck claiming they were emissaries from some unheard of micronation. > > I mean, it still wouldn’t **work** , but at least diplomatic immunity is a thing that exists in the US in The Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Fifteen. (Diplomats can still get traffic violations tho) Well, diplomatic immunity only applies to accredited diplomatic representations and then only when the sending nation exercises such immunity. > [@Ranchoth](#): > > I should really get around to writing my Congressman about getting that Letter of Marque… Hey! Me, too! I just checked the ol’ Wiki and it looks like there may be a movement for that. Since those [de]lunatics[/del] don’t think they’re US citizens, or even subject to US law, that means that I can attack them and take all their money, etc., no matter where they are, right? At least, that “theory” is better than their stupidities. > [@adeste fideles](#): > > This is AMAZING. > > Also: If her voice and logic were played over and over as an interrogation/method of torture…I would totally squeal. I would give up all the information. I could barely get through the video. I think the Geneva Conventions need to designate her voice as a crime against humanity. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > By resisting the impulse to shoot a tazer down her throat, that officer has single-handedly improved my opinion about the police. I cannot wait until I get home tonight. A close friend has a brother who is a police officer in South Korea. I’m going to send that link to her and ask her brother his opinion. Both my friend and her brother are fluent in English, but I worry about him watching the video. He might choke to death while laughing. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This pretty much illustrates the fundamental flaw in the sovereign free inhabitant argument. > > You may sincerely believe that you are immune to the laws of the United States. > > But the police officer who arrests you will believe you are subject to those laws. And the judge who presides over your trial will believe you are subject to those laws. And the guard in the prison where they send you will believe you are subject to those laws. Nope. They won’t believe that. They’ll just believe they’re martyrs. > [@Senegoid](#): > > Waitaminnit! Don’t these folks rely heavily on the Uniform Commercial Code? Is it even possible for the UCC to co-exist with the Articles of Confederation (which had no such thing as the Commerce Clause)? Hey!Hey![size=5]Hey!\*\* What are you doing trying to use logic here? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Absent from the entire exchange is the voice of the driver. I imagine he was probably thinking… “Bitch, shut the fuck up! You’re not helping with this lunatic bullshit! Just shut your fucking big mouth before we’re both arrested for that bag of pot you’re holding in your purse. Please god, make her shut the fuck up…” Using that ridiculous grin on the driver’s face, I’m going to have to say he was thinking: “Thank God Almighty I’m finally going to jail. That’s the only reason I was pretending to buy into that bitch’s bullshit. I really didn’t know any other way to break it off.” > [@steronz](#): > > He was wearing a Guy Fawkes shirt that said “OBEY,” so… Classic. > [@Horatius](#): > > Don’t laugh, there _are_ some of them out there who cite the Magna Carta. I’ve met, sadly, more than one such. > [@Chimera](#): > > For the most part, there’s no point in the police or even the courts arguing with these loons. They have staked out a position that is so far outside of reality and so full of internal contradictions that they aren’t going to listen and you aren’t going to wake them up. Just ignore the crap, consider it the ramblings of a drunk, make the arrest, process the charges, put them in jail. The sooner they see that their ‘magic’ mumbo jumbo had zero effect on their situation and didn’t shield them from any consequences, the sooner they’ll figure out that it doesn’t work. I was wondering what was with the cop in the video. He had obviously gotten the driver out of the car (lucky bastard was away from the bitch!) and had placed him under arrest. Why was he even trying to reason with an obviously unreasonable person. Actually, I’m severely disappointed. I wanted to see her get tazed. Oh, well. That’ll probably happen in the near future! > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I love to laugh at the sovereign citizens, but I admit to feeling some sympathy for them. After all, a lot of the rhetoric of the Founding Fathers was based on social contract theory and the idea that the right to govern comes from the consent of the governed. In some ways they’re just taking the U.S. at its word. (And then naively and ridiculously misinterpreting that word.) > > And we all do that to some extent. If I were arrested, say, for refusing to consent to a search of my vehicle or for refusing to answer an officer’s questions, you better believe I’d argue with the cops (hopefully more politely and reasonably than these people, but still…) and I’d take it to court. And if I lost in court, I’d appeal. And even if the Supreme Court decided against me, I’d still argue that I _should_ have won, because I’m right, and we’re supposed to be a nation of laws. The difference, of course, is that unlike the sovereign citizens, I _am_ right about what the law says. At least, I think I am. This is what’s known as mature and intelligent behavior. That is quite lacking with the CTers, of any stripe. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/51 "2015-07-30T05:38:03Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I agree with one of the posters there, her voice should be an arrestable offense. :pHeh. One of my nephews has a girlfriend who has an irritating cartoon voice like that. It’s too bad that she’s a really nice, pleasant person because it makes me feel bad that I want to scream every time she talks. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/52 "2015-07-30T06:19:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Waitaminnit! Don’t these folks rely heavily on the Uniform Commercial Code? Is it even possible for the UCC to co-exist with the Articles of Confederation (which had no such thing as the Commerce Clause)? Well, if you want a serious answer… The UCC is not a federal law. It is a model set of laws written by the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws and the American Law Institute. Individual states adopt it (or not) as they see fit. All states have adopted a version of the UCC. Louisiana has not adopted Article 2. So the Commerce Clause has no connection with the UCC. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/53 "2015-07-30T06:24:16Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > But sitting in a cell with Big Jojo is so much easier to bear when you know that you’re _immune_ to him. Big Jojo doesn’t think you’re subject to the laws of the United States either. Big Jojo thinks you are subject to Big Jojo. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/54 "2015-07-30T07:19:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, diplomatic immunity only applies to accredited diplomatic representations and then only when the sending nation exercises such immunity. Nitpick : it’s the other way around. It applies unless the sending nation waives it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/55 "2015-07-30T08:02:57Z")
Thanks, **clairobscur**. You’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/56 "2015-07-30T14:52:38Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The “Sovereign Citizen” game is like a cargo cult of superstition and magic. The flawed assumption that if you do the right rituals, if you speak the right words, you can ‘magic’ the system and not be forced to play the game by the same rules as everyone else. It is, but they believe that’s equally true of the legal system. The reasoning, such as it is, appears to be “I don’t understand legalese, therefore it doesn’t actually mean anything, therefore it’s just magic rituals, therefore my magic rituals should be equally good” though I don’t think many of them would say most of that explicitly. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, yes, but my point was that for a group who claim that U.S. courts have no authority over them, they seem awfully willing to resort to the courts when it suits them. > [@Projammer](#): > > It’s standard doctrine to use an enemies tools against them. Nothing unusual there. I seem to recall reading some of them (claim to) set up their own courts. I imagine these tend to be a lot like the tribunal from _The Dark Knight Rises_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/57 "2015-07-30T14:57:41Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I mean, even as this woman was being dragged away in cuffs was she thinking to herself that maybe she was wrong? No, she was screaming that the officer _didn’t even know the rules_. That’s some mighty powerful cognitive dissonance. She doesn’t just think he’s wrong; the cuffs go on, and she thinks she’s _not under arrest_. “You’re under arrest.” “No, I’m not. NO, I’m NOT.” (Bearing in mind, of course, that she also thinks she was raped.) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/58 "2015-07-30T16:11:22Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, yes, but my point was that for a group who claim that U.S. courts have no authority over them, they seem awfully willing to resort to the courts when it suits them. Since everyone is actually a corporation they seem to find some parts of civil courts they deal with. But mostly they are just being dicks. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > (on a side note: I am now somewhat concerned at the apparent case that any Tom Dick or Harriet can file liens against my property just for the f\*&^ of it and nobody will look to see if they’re real. One would think at the very least one would have to produce a verifiable legal document proving one is empowered to file said lien…) Some states have enacted statutes with severe penalties for this kind of malicious attack on your finances. Others are behind on the issue. Regardless it can really screw you up until it is straightened out. Whenever a cop has an issue with one of these yahoos it is usually recommended the sign up for lifelock. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/59 "2015-07-30T16:18:49Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > So the Commerce Clause has no connection with the UCC. Does TOO! DOES TOO! :smack: :head slap: I gotta stop reading this thread… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478/60 "2015-07-30T16:49:25Z")
I wish we could get updates on stuff like this. As fun as the arrest video was i bet it pales in comparison to the part when her made up reality explodes in her face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-sovereign-citizen-goodness/726478.md?page=4)