More than 90% chance that global warming is due to human activity...

This is the document that we have been discussing for the whole thread, which you seem after three pages to be entirely unaware of. As has been indicated, the link in the OP contains a link to report itself (labeled, surprisingly enough, “IPCC Report”). My apologies. I assumed that a person of normal intelligence might have been able to work that out for themselves.

So you’ve really just been blathering on without the foggiest notion of what we have been talking about in the thread. Thank you, jane, for giving us a prime example of the depth of insight and analysis offered by most opponents of global warming.

The “report” you refer to contains a lot of statements and tables with references to some other document. The references are contained in curly braces.

It’s hard to see how anyone can call this “thorough,” without looking at the missing document.

Yeah, I guess I demonstrated poor intelligence by assuming that when you claimed a document was linked, you meant that the document was linked.

(But feel free to continue blathering on without the foggiest notion of what you are talking about!)

U.S. Officials Praise Climate Change Report

I wonder if that last bit means that Bush et al will stop trying to muzzle NOAA scientists ?

As has been mentioned, the full report will be published later. But much of the basic information contained in the report has already been available in the primary scientific literature in the climatological journals, so the conclusions are no great surprise (at least if you follow the literature).

Well, it was. I assumed that when someone comes into a thread discussing a particular document, they might have actually tried looking at the document before commenting on it. And it’s been linked to directly elsewhere in the thread. You really have no excuse for not being aware of it.

Oh, SNAP! :smiley:

jane, I’m sure it’s quite obvious to the readers of this thread which of us knows what they are talking about, and which one doesn’t.

Here is my post "Cite? Here’s the actual PDF report, which I read, and quoted one line of. …

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/docs/W...aryApproved.pdf "

That link goes to the IPCC report, which is subtitled “Summary for Policymakers.”

As Colibri said, the full report hasn’t been released yet in it’s final form. But the “Summary for Policymakers.” is more science than many here can understand anyway. I can’t see needing more to convince anyone.

If so, then why did you state the following?:

Looks to me like you were completely wrong.

Then why didn’t you say “the document is linked elsewhere in the thread,” instead of falsely claiming it was linked in the original post?

You’re the one who was dead wrong at least twice in the thread. Either you have no idea what you are talking about or you are intentionally lying. Neither choice says very much about global warming proponents.

BTW, is it possible that some people harbor a double standard?

What if a “report” came out that stated things like the following:

Would people accept it as “thorough”? Would they demand to see sections 2.2, 3.2 and 3.3 before making up their minds? Or would they dismiss the entire “report” out of hand?

What if Monkeys came out my ass? What if Gawd appeared personally to each Atheist? :rolleyes:

In te case of the current report, as in the case of the “what if” you mention, there’d be a few maverick scientists that would not accept it, and work to disprove it.

But you see, it is not just this one report. Over the last decade or so, more and more scientists have come over to accept Global Warming, including Anthropogenic cause of climate change. Last report was similar to this one, but IIRC, was worded more like “more likely than not” now it’s “very high confidence”. In other words, this isn’t new, just stronger- more sure, more likely.

Yeah, I wouldn’t want to miss the (now discredited) “hockey stick graph”

http://www.junkscience.com/july05/hokey.html

:rolleyes:

You’re getting your science from JunkScience.com? The same JunkScience.com authored by Steven “previously a lobbyist for the APA” Milloy?

Oh gawd…

jane, how about providing us with some specific facts in the IPCC report that you disagree with, together with links to recent peer-reviewed literature on which you base this disagreement?

Speaking of “discredited”…

www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=JunkScience.com

I’m a little confused. Are you saying that the “hockey stick graph” hasn’t been discredited?

Are you saying that the junkscience site altered the graph somehow?

Here is a link to the NAS report on the hockey stick graph and the temperature proxy reconstructions in general. I don’t see how it can be read as discrediting it. It basically re-affirms Mann et al.'s basic conclusions, except with more uncertainty…at least as you get back before 1600 A.D. They note that, while some of the other proxy reconstructions do show somewhat larger multicentennial temperature variations before the modern upkick, they all so far seem to show temperatures warmer by the late 20th century than they were at any time over the past ~1000 years.

Well, I don’t see anything wrong with the graph. On the other hand, there is also nothing on the graph that shows it to be discredited, so I think the other posters are assuming that you probably were also reading more stuff about the graph on the junkscience website that caused you to reach your conclusion about its having been discredited.

And, by the way, I think that the two conclusions that the IPCC reached that were based, at least in large part, on Mann et al.'s work (concerning the temperatures in the late 20th century relative to the last millenium and concerning the rate of rise of the temperature during the 20th century as compared to other centuries in the last millenium) were both conclusions that they labeled as “likely”, which in IPCC-TAR-speak meant an estimated 66-90% probability of being correct.

If none of the many conclusions that the IPCC labels as having a 66-90% chance of being correct turn out to be incorrect, then I would say the IPCC is guilty of overestimating the amount of uncertainty in its conclusions. And, as it turns out, at this point we still don’t know if these two particular conclusions are right or wrong.

I’ll just mention that I’ve just now read through this thread for the first time, and it seems quite clear to me that stutteringjane has no idea what he or she is talking about.

Carry on.

This argument over who funds the various camps in the climate debate is pointless. Their arguments can stand on their own. If they’ve published their findings, then prattling on about whatever agenda you think they have, whether socialist or evil capitalist, really doesn’t matter. You’ve got their argument in your hands - refute it. It can be authored by monkeys, for all I care.

Unfortunately for the nonbelievers, I think the science is in, and there can be no question that A) the earth is warming, and B) man has contributed some amount to that.

At this point, if you disagree with that statement, you’re way, way out on a scientific limb. That’s not necessarily a bad place to be - stifling dissent in scientific debate is apalling, no matter which side is doing it.

Now, once we get past that basic statement, you start drifting into the realm of opinion and politics. Is the temperature rise a real threat? Or just an acceptable cost of commerce? What do you do about it? Do you spend trillions on carbon output reduction, or on risk mitigation through improving the world’s ability to cope with temperature change? Is it better to cut back, or to spend the money on research into technologies for carbon sequestration or other methods of fighting the problem?

There are no clear answers for those questions - it depends on who you ask and what their agenda is. And make no mistake - once a stampede like this starts, all kinds of interests will be hitching their wagons to it. Europeans looking to punish the U.S. China looking for a competitive advantage. Countries with lots of natural carbon sinks lobbying for Kyoto because it costs them less to meet targets than competing countries. Democrats, Republicans… Everyone’s got an angle.

Here’s the fundamental problem as I see it: We simply can’t control fossil fuel consumption. Not without the cooperation of China and India for sure. What’s going to happen if we cut ourselves off completely from oil? The price of it will drop dramatically, which will act as an incentive for other countries to use more of it. And that’s exactly what they’ll do. That fossil fuel is going to get burned until it’s too expensive to burn. Period. It’s all going into the atmosphere at some point.

So what’s the best course of action? Continued pleading for worldwide reductions, which countries will agree to and then promptly violate? Check out the rates of increase of greenhouse gases in Europe, which is overwhelmingly in favor of Kyoto.

To me, the science still isn’t clear enough to state with certainly that the consquences will be bad enough to warrant killing economic growth throughout the world now. That carries its own risks. It may turn out to be far more cost effective to just wait for temperature to rise and deal with the effects. But possibly not. It could be much worse than that.

So the other thing you can do is work to come up with an alternative energy source that is more cost effective than oil. That’s the only way you’re going to curtail use of oil - make its use non-competitive.

You can spend money on technologies for counteracting the warming - carbon sequestration, generating ocean blooms, etc.

Hell, we might even find our biggest bang-for-the-buck to jumping on the ‘meat is murder’ bandwagon. Bovine flatulence is actually a very significant contributor to greenhouse gases. Put a methane tax on cow meat. There’s a lab that’s growing sheets of artificial muscle from stem cells. Let’s grow us some steaks, eat up all the remaining cows, and turn all that pasture into something more useful. That alone could have a bigger effect on warming than getting rid of all our cars.

Oh, and we should give up rice. Rice fields are a pretty serious contributor to atmospheric methane. Methane is 20 times more potent than C02, and its concentration in the atmosphere has increased something like 14% in the last century.

What bothers me about the debate is that it is simply presumed that if it exists, the only proper thing to do is to create large international treaties through the UN, expand government, punish business, and in general follow the typical left-wing dogma.

International treaties only work when it’s in everyone’s interest to not cheat. Look how well the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty worked. Or Kyoto, or the ABM treaty. Russia is an oil-producing nation. Do you really believe Putin is going to play this game? Urge the world to stop using his product? Do you think the Chinese government might decide access to suddenly very cheap oil might be more in its interest than adopting expensive carbon reduction measures?

In Alberta, the mere mention of Kyoto, carbon taxes, carbon caps, or anything that is seen as even remotely punishing the oil industry is met with fury by that industry and the provincial government. That fight is going to take place all over the world, wherever there are interests that benefit from the current oil consumption infrastructure. It’s political dynamite. If you can’t get Alberta on board, good luck with the Chinese.

The only way you’ll get a worldwide carbon treaty that actually means something is at the point of a gun. Otherwise, we’ll just futz around the margins and pat ourselves on the back like we’re doing something. Are we ready to do that? Start threatening people? Perhaps institute carbon tariffs on goods to and from countries that won’t play ball?

If you really think warming is a serious problem, then you might want to consider thinking about some backup plans if the whole ‘world-singing-kumbaya’ thing doesn’t work out. Because it won’t.

Personally, I think we need to attack this with technology. Nuclear power. Plug-in hybrids. More wind and solar. Find a way to make it competitive with oil. Then you can go ahead and cut your carbon emissions and it won’t cost a thing.

I don’t think we’re that far away. Plug-in hybrids are only a few years away. I predict they will be extremely popular, if sold right. The current power grid will actually be able to handle a large bit of the increase, because the cars will charge at night when there is little other power demand. Supplement the grid with nuclear power, and gradually phase out the worst-offending power sources and replace them with nuclear.

Compact flourescent bulbs haven’t been that popular in the past, because they threw a pretty ghastly light and were expensive. The new ones look just like regular bulbs, last four to ten times as long, and consume 1/5 the power. I just bought a 3-pack of them for $11. You’re going to see a sea-change in favor of those bulbs in the next two or three years. Wal-Mart is planning to sell 200 million of them next year - they’re going to push them heavily onto customers.

The answer isn’t always bigger government and a stronger UN.

This is amazing… it actually IS put in with the debate threads!! I could not believe it until I saw it. Debating what to do about it is a different question, of course, which is what I thought this entire thread was when I heard about it. But it’s NOT!!! Holy God, people are actually debating whether global warming even exists. The world’s a sad, sad place sometimes.

I have to say, I think the pit thread is more appropriate for all that I don’t really like the pit very much. The existence of global warming is not a subject that is appropriate for debate, and human contribution to it, while not as inappropriate, is not much better. Many things are appropriate for people to express while taking advantage of their right to free expression, but not everything is an appropriate subject for debate. I’m not going to debate whether I need an aluminum foil hat to keep aliens from reading my mind. I’m not going to debate whether those same aliens kidnapped me and sucked out my memories last night. I’m not going to debate whether I’m actually an alien, and I just don’t realize it because the other aliens modified my memory so that I wouldn’t give away their secret plan to rule the world. But you know, I’ve seen places on the net where somebody claimed all these things. So I hate to see this issue even being debated, because that creates the illusion of controversy where none exists (in the realm of logical thinking, that is.) But I guess it has to be done. :rolleyes:

A separate discussion deserving of its own thread, so I started one.