# More Vietnam vets died of suicide than in combat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198 "2007-07-10T14:31:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/1 "2007-07-10T14:31:16Z")
I visited an art museum recently that had an exhibit that made this claim. I’ve heard it elsewhere, too. I dunno. _Have_ more Vietnam veterans died of suicide since 1975, than died in combat or of wounds during the war itself? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/2 "2007-07-10T14:55:38Z")
Even if this is true, it might not prove much. Suicide is more common than you might think. In the U.S., more people die of suicide than are murdered, but not as many people commit suicide as die in auto accidents. You should compare the percent of Vietnam War veterans who committed suicide with the percent of non-veterans of the same age, etc. who committed suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/3 "2007-07-10T14:59:45Z")
It seems to depend on who you ask. This link says that some sources claim the suicide number to be at 20,000 by 1993, while others claim it’s as high as 150,000. [Suicide Wall](http://www.suicidewall.com/SWStats.html) Really, I agree with Wendell Wagner. If the number of suicides was greater than 50,000 _during_ the war itself, that would be staggering. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/4 "2007-07-10T18:27:36Z")
If they were killed in action, then they couldn’t have become veterans since they were, er, dead. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/5 "2007-07-10T18:52:58Z")
[QUOTE=Terminus Est] If they were killed in action, then they couldn’t have become veterans since they were, er, dead. [/QUOTE] _checking forum_ Umm… good observation? ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/6 "2007-07-10T19:15:52Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] _checking forum_ Umm… good observation? [/QUOTE] I think **Terminus Est** is suggesting no veterans were killed in action (because if they were killed, they’re not veterans). I think that depend on a rather unorthodox definition of “veteran”, though. I’m pretty sure it was intended as a joke. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/7 "2007-07-10T19:32:17Z")
According to Michael Lind in his book _Vietnam: the Necessary War_, Vietnam vets have the same rate of suicide as the general population. He doesn’t give a number on suicidal vets, though. But if his assertion is true, then even if there were more vets who committed suicide than died in the war (and it’s been over 30 years since the war ended, so that’s a considerable amount of time to count suicides), it says nothing about the effect of the war on those folks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/8 "2007-07-10T19:44:42Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] According to Michael Lind in his book _Vietnam: the Necessary War_, Vietnam vets have the same rate of suicide as the general population. He doesn’t give a number on suicidal vets, though. But if his assertion is true, \*\*then even if there were more vets who committed suicide than died in the war… \*\* [/QUOTE] It’s simply not possible for both those statements to be true; mathematically, they have to be mutually exclusive. I can’t find a precise source for the number of servicemen who served in Vietnam at one point or another, but most sources with estimates place that numner at 2.5 million. If more vets committed suicide than were killed in the war, that would be a suicide rate of at least 2.4%, which is astronomical. The U.S. average suicide rate (as in suicides per person oveer their entire lifetimes) is less than one percent. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/9 "2007-07-10T19:50:56Z")
I believe that Martin Amis makes this claim in his book Koba The Dread. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/10 "2007-07-10T19:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] I think **Terminus Est** is suggesting no veterans were killed in action (because if they were killed, they’re not veterans). I think that depend on a rather unorthodox definition of “veteran”, though. I’m pretty sure it was intended as a joke. 😕 [/QUOTE] I think so, too; I’m pretty sure, also. It is obvious to anybody (deleting what I was going to say here, since I made sure to check the forum) that the question intended was: “Did more Vietnam veterans die of suicide than (the number of soliders who died) in combat?” Sometimes… aww, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/11 "2007-07-10T19:54:28Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] It’s simply not possible for both those statements to be true; mathematically, they have to be mutually exclusive. I can’t find a precise source for the number of servicemen who served in Vietnam at one point or another, but most sources with estimates place that numner at 2.5 million. If more vets committed suicide than were killed in the war, that would be a suicide rate of at least 2.4%, which is astronomical. The U.S. average suicide rate (as in suicides per person oveer their entire lifetimes) is less than one percent. [/QUOTE] Back to the OP. How much less than one percent is it? I can see people who were exposed to a great deal of trauma having a suicide rate of three times the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/12 "2007-07-10T19:54:46Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] I think **Terminus Est** is suggesting no veterans were killed in action (because if they were killed, they’re not veterans). I think that depend on a rather unorthodox definition of “veteran”, though. I’m pretty sure it was intended as a joke. 😕 [/QUOTE] It was a semi-joke. A veteran is someone who served in the armed forces. They must have survived long enough to have retired or been discharged. A soldier, sailor, airman, or marine who is killed in action hasn’t retired nor have they been discharged from service. So, strictly speaking, there aren’t any Vietnam veterans who died in combat since they weren’t veterans when they died. A dead soldier is still a soldier, not a veteran. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/13 "2007-07-10T19:55:19Z")
Just so we are clear, it’s my understanding that there were about 50,000 U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War (and about 2 million Vietnamese casualties). Is that our basis for comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/14 "2007-07-10T22:30:01Z")
[QUOTE=Atomicktom] Just so we are clear, it’s my understanding that there were about 50,000 U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War (and about 2 million Vietnamese casualties). Is that our basis for comparison? [/QUOTE] That’s the number I understand to be more or less correct. I just checked. It’s 58,209 American soldiers killed, with another 2,000 missing. Basically, 60,000 is a reasonable number to go by. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/15 "2007-07-10T22:45:04Z")
I find it very hard to believe 26 thousand plus committed suicide and 26 thousand plus died as casualties of war. Having several relatives still alive today who were in that war, I’ve never heard such a statistic…We’ll need a reputable cite…HOLD Just called my uncle and he said there is no way that is true. Though there was a considerably high suicide rate it wasn’t 1 in 2… ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/16 "2007-07-10T23:25:38Z")
Some posters aren’t reading the OP correctly. It says that there have been more suicides among VN vets., SINCE 1975, than there were KIA’s during the war. I suspect this is grossly exagerated and probably includes every vet. who died from alcoholism and drug abuse. Remember the old saw: There are lies, damn lies and statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/17 "2007-07-10T23:37:26Z")
I would say the suicide thing is about as likely as Sen Barbara Boxer’s recent claim that half the current homeless population are Viet Nam vets. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/18 "2007-07-10T23:41:58Z")
From the [Statistics about the Vietnam War](http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html) page of the [Vietnam Helicopter Flight Crew Network](http://www.vhfcn.org/) web site, citing _Testimony by Dr. Houk_, Oversight on Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, 14 July 1988 page 17, Hearing before the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs United States Senate one hundredth Congress second session. Also “Estimating the Number of Suicides Among Vietnam Veterans” (Am J Psychiatry 147, 6 June 1990 pages 772-776) > [@](#): > > _Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population._ > > Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. “The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans’ group.” [[Houk](http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html#HOUK)] Whether someone could have arrange for an additional 46,000 suicides in the intervening 19 years (and whether it would be relevant as anything more than a factoid), I am not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/19 "2007-07-11T00:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=A.R. Cane] Some posters aren’t reading the OP correctly. It says that there have been more suicides among VN vets., SINCE 1975, than there were KIA’s during the war. I suspect this is grossly exagerated and probably includes every vet. who died from alcoholism and drug abuse. Remember the old saw: There are lies, damn lies and statistics. [/QUOTE] Doh - my bad…you are right ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198/20 "2007-07-12T02:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] I would say the suicide thing is about as likely as Sen Barbara Boxer’s recent claim that half the current homeless population are Viet Nam vets. [/QUOTE] Actually, I believe her statement covered not only Vietnam Vets, but all Vets from all the various wars, police actions, etc. since WWII. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-vietnam-vets-died-of-suicide-than-in-combat/411198.md?page=2)