# Mormon Bishop Murdered in California **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 31, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084 "2010-08-31T02:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/1 "2010-08-31T02:54:01Z")
[From the _Fresno Bee_](http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/29/2058306/shooting-in-mormon-church-leaves.html#storylink=mirelated): > [@](#): > > Law enforcement officers in Visalia are investigating a shooting at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that left a Mormon church official dead. > > Police officers say Clay Sannar, a lay bishop of the church, was shot in his office during a break between scheduled Sunday services. More of the story is at the link. The killer is also dead now, after a shoot-out with police. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/2 "2010-08-31T05:49:35Z")
Um… thanks for the news update? Joe ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/3 "2010-08-31T05:55:33Z")
This is my neighborhood. Initial scuttlebutt yesterday on facebook and comment threads, this being ground zero for the homophobic pro-prop 8 movement, was that it was something the gays did. Being active in the pro-equality crowd here, I was pretty certain that was not the case. Now it appears the shooter was a disgruntled ex-member of the Church in question, who had some unspecified beef with a previous Bishop before falling mentally ill as an adult. I am sure all those people will be apologizing on message boards for their homophobia and raising the bar on hate while two people lay dead. Yes, I am sure of it :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/4 "2010-08-31T06:37:13Z")
Huh. My first thought wouldn’t even be that this had something to do with the LDS church and could be totally unrelated. I mean, that’s not what appears to have happened, but lay bishops are generally pretty ordinary folk who might piss people off for non-Mormon related reasons. My high school Spanish teacher was an LDS bishop, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/5 "2010-08-31T06:43:51Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Huh. My first thought wouldn’t even be that this had something to do with the LDS church and could be totally unrelated. I mean, that’s not what appears to have happened, but lay bishops are generally pretty ordinary folk who might piss people off for non-Mormon related reasons. My high school Spanish teacher was an LDS bishop, for instance. In over two years now, Prop 8 has never stopped being THE issue of discussion here locally. For example, [GetEqual.org](http://GetEqual.org)’s founder Robin McGehee teaches at the local Community College right down the street from this church. Feelings run VERY high with everyone. I had to have a long discussion with the local newspaper editor just this past Friday about how DANGEROUS and inflammatory the LTTE he published the day before was. So that was in the air too. Fortunately for pro-equality advocates, this appears to not be related at all. But that doesn’t mean there won’t be a backlash. People are edgy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/6 "2010-08-31T20:14:35Z")
What is a lay bishop? ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/7 "2010-08-31T20:30:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What is a lay bishop? Lay = non-professional clergy. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/8 "2010-08-31T22:13:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What is a lay bishop? Oh, and I should add that in Mormonism a [bishop](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(Latter_Day_Saints)) is in charge of the spiritual as well as temporal well-being of his congregation (ward) of about 200-300 people, and typically serves 4-7 years. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/9 "2010-09-01T02:41:24Z")
Thanks, **Rhodes**. A bit more information. A Bishopric in the LDS Church is composed of three individuals: the Bishop, the First Counselor, and the Second Counselor. My current calling is Second Counselor in the Bishopric of my ward here. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/10 "2010-09-01T02:48:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Thanks, **Rhodes**. A bit more information. A Bishopric in the LDS Church is composed of three individuals: the Bishop, the First Counselor, and the Second Counselor. My current calling is Second Counselor in the Bishopric of my ward here. Has there been any discussion inside the Church as to why this man might have held a grudge? He, his brother, and his family seem to have left the chruch in the mid 80s together, and then came back later, some to drift away again. All of that started before he became mentally ill. It seems to me there is more to it than meets the eye so far. Does it seem the same way to Mormons themselves? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/11 "2010-09-01T03:04:05Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > Thanks, **Rhodes**. A bit more information. A Bishopric in the LDS Church is composed of three individuals: the Bishop, the First Counselor, and the Second Counselor. My current calling is Second Counselor in the Bishopric of my ward here. > > Has there been any discussion inside the Church as to why this man might have held a grudge? He, his brother, and his family seem to have left the chruch in the mid 80s together, and then came back later, some to drift away again. All of that started before he became mentally ill. It seems to me there is more to it than meets the eye so far. Does it seem the same way to Mormons themselves? It really could be anything. The way the wards are set up, they could have known each other in the community, outside of church, for years. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/12 "2010-09-01T03:15:01Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > > [@not\_alice](#): > > > > Has there been any discussion inside the Church as to why this man might have held a grudge? He, his brother, and his family seem to have left the chruch in the mid 80s together, and then came back later, some to drift away again. All of that started before he became mentally ill. It seems to me there is more to it than meets the eye so far. Does it seem the same way to Mormons themselves? > > It really could be anything. The way the wards are set up, they could have known each other in the community, outside of church, for years. Of course. But I wonder if the Church and its members are willing to look inside and see if the men and their family may have been hurt somehow all those years ago? And if so was it an isolated case out of all the Mormon temples everywhere? Or is it a canary in the coal mine? How willing to look and accept what they might not want to hear or know are they? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/13 "2010-09-01T15:01:00Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > > > It really could be anything. The way the wards are set up, they could have known each other in the community, outside of church, for years. > > Of course. But I wonder if the Church and its members are willing to look inside and see if the men and their family may have been hurt somehow all those years ago? And if so was it an isolated case out of all the Mormon temples everywhere? Or is it a canary in the coal mine? How willing to look and accept what they might not want to hear or know are they? This is all IMHO, but I doubt they’re going to look any deeper than “that man was disturbed” with whispers of “That man was working for Lucifer.” And if it comes to light that the shooter was motivated primarily by something that happened to him within the church, I’d guess the widespread reaction would be “Well that’s an isolated incident” or “God gave everybody free will.” ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/14 "2010-09-01T15:17:41Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > This is all IMHO, but I doubt they’re going to look any deeper than “that man was disturbed” with whispers of “That man was working for Lucifer.” And if it comes to light that the shooter was motivated primarily by something that happened to him within the church, I’d guess the widespread reaction would be “Well that’s an isolated incident” or “God gave everybody free will.” Of course. I am expecting some spectacular examples of denial. I wouldn’t even be surprised if some money changes hands surreptitiously. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/15 "2010-09-01T15:53:34Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > What is a lay bishop? > > Lay = non-professional clergy. That doesn’t make sense. The definition of lay in terms of religion is “not a member of the clergy”. Monty’s wikipedia says that Bishops must first be priests, which precludes the possibility of a lay bishop. I guess what they are going for is “not paid”, but that isn’t what lay means. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/16 "2010-09-01T16:12:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@Rhodes](#): > > > > Lay = non-professional clergy. > > That doesn’t make sense. The definition of lay in terms of religion is “not a member of the clergy”. Monty’s wikipedia says that Bishops must first be priests, which precludes the possibility of a lay bishop. I guess what they are going for is “not paid”, but that isn’t what lay means. Any group can call its members whatever they want. They can be Kings or Grand Poobahs, who cares? My understanding is that Mormons don’t have professional clergy. If they want to call the guy a Bishop, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/17 "2010-09-01T16:14:56Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@Rhodes](#): > > > > Lay = non-professional clergy. > > That doesn’t make sense. The definition of lay in terms of religion is “not a member of the clergy”. Monty’s wikipedia says that Bishops must first be priests, which precludes the possibility of a lay bishop. I guess what they are going for is “not paid”, but that isn’t what lay means. From what I remember of LDS preisthood, is any adult male in good standing is a member of the preisthood, there are no such things as a paid preisthood in the church. Being a preist in the church more or less means you are an adult male, and you can go teach, and go off on a mission. A bishop is required to be married with a family, and is also unpaid. I don’t think there is any paid clergy in the LDS church at all. \*\*I’m not LDS myself, but I have many friends & family within the church. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/18 "2010-09-01T18:00:29Z")
Check your dictionary. _Lay_ also means _not a member of a profession_. Since LDS priests are unpaid, they’re certainly not professional priests. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/19 "2010-09-01T18:01:28Z")
> [@lexi](#): > > > [@treis](#): > > > > That doesn’t make sense. The definition of lay in terms of religion is “not a member of the clergy”. Monty’s wikipedia says that Bishops must first be priests, which precludes the possibility of a lay bishop. I guess what they are going for is “not paid”, but that isn’t what lay means. > > From what I remember of LDS preisthood, is any adult male in good standing is a member of the preisthood, there are no such things as a paid preisthood in the church. > > Being a preist in the church more or less means you are an adult male, and you can go teach, and go off on a mission. > > A bishop is required to be married with a family, and is also unpaid. > > I don’t think there is any paid clergy in the LDS church at all. > > \*\*I’m not LDS myself, but I have many friends & family within the church. Yes, that is mostly correct. All of the local clergy are “lay” and serve the church in addition to having their regular careers. Missionaries receive housing and a small allowance, and I assume it is similar for others who are called to work full-time as clergy. “Priest” refers to all males in good standing age 16 and up. It’s not the same as the Catholic use of the word, much like “bishop” has a completely different meaning from a Catholic bishop. So each ward has one bishop, and all of the active men are priests. Hell, apostates are priests too unless their priesthood has been revoked or suspended by excommunication or disfellowship. If I showed up and tried to perform a baptism, they’d be shocked but they’d probably let me as long as all the paperwork is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_Cello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Clark\_Cello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_Cello)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084/20 "2010-09-01T18:43:55Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > > > This is all IMHO, but I doubt they’re going to look any deeper than “that man was disturbed” with whispers of “That man was working for Lucifer.” And if it comes to light that the shooter was motivated primarily by something that happened to him within the church, I’d guess the widespread reaction would be “Well that’s an isolated incident” or “God gave everybody free will.” > > Of course. I am expecting some spectacular examples of denial. I wouldn’t even be surprised if some money changes hands surreptitiously. Do you do this everytime someone is murdered? Do you wonder what the victim or someone associated with the victim might have done to cause it? Or just when Mormons are killed? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-bishop-murdered-in-california/552084.md?page=2)