# Mormon Church Issues vast new Transgender restrictions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021 "2024-08-22T00:20:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/21 "2024-08-24T05:54:31Z")
Just talked to “Kim”, a nonbinary, former Mormon who is is not an active member, but who knows people who do attend. According to Kim, one big change is that trans members are no longer permitted to attend meetings of their preferred gender. For example, a transwoman would not be able to attend meetings for female members, and transmen would not be able to attend meetings for male members. Until now, some local congregations have permitted trans members to attend meetings of their preferred gender. I haven’t seen this online, but this is new so confirmation will come out later. I’ll see if I can provide some explanations of the Mormon doctrine behind this move. Disclosures 1. I’m a ex-Mormon and while I’ve moved past the bitter stage, I personally really hate these policies. 2. I left the church many years ago and went through a period of studying various doctrine and history, as an ex, for about five years starting about 20 years ago, so I don’t have really current information, but the fundamentals probably haven’t changed much. In addition to opposition to transgender issues shared by other conservative Christians, Mormonism has unique doctrines which contribute to this mess. Mormonism has a doctrine called the Plan of Salvation. [![](https://wheatandtares.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/plan.jpg?w=800) ](https://wheatandtares.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/plan.jpg?w=800) It’s Mormon doctrine that everyone who has ever been born or who will be born existed in what is called the Pre-existence (also called the First Estate, such as in the illustration) in a spiritual body. As spiritual beings, we had our own personalities and characteristics, and had progressed to the point where coming to the Earth was necessary for our eternal progress. Mormon doctrine says that prior to the world being formed, there was a battle between the spiritual being followers of Christ and those of Lucifer, and with a valiant followers being held back to be placed in LDS homes in the “last days,” often called [Saturday’s Warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday%27s_Warrior). > **Who are the Saturday Warriors?** > > Growing up in the 60s and 70s, I was supposed to be part of this chosen generation. As the world hasn’t ended yet, subsequent generations have been awarded this title. > **More about the 'less valiant'** > > For a long time, it was unofficial doctrine that Blacks had been fence sitters in the Great War and thus were not permitted the priesthood or temple ordinances. Anyway, the point of this detailed explanation is that (A) we existed as ourselves in the pre-existence, and (B) God selects our families when we are born. There can’t be any mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2024, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/22 "2024-08-25T05:44:30Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I haven’t seen this online, but this is new so confirmation will come out later. Not allowing trans members to attend meetings of their preferred gender has been cited a number of times so I think it’s likely to be true. Other restrictions include mandated use of single person restrooms or having a chaperone accompany the person to the restroom to ensure no one else uses the restroom at the same time. In other new changes, or clarifications, people can get “sealed”, or eternally married including in the afterlife, by proxy to deceased former spouses who had remarried, provided the the widow / widower of the deceased former spouse gives consent. I have no one if anyone can follow that so let’s say “Jack” and “Jill” were married but not sealed for eternal life together. Later, Jack and Jill get divorced and Jill remarries (but also not sealed to) “Bob” then subsequently Jill passes. Jack can apply for permission to be sealed to his now deceased, ex-wife Jill so they can be together in the afterlife, provided her widower Bob gives his consent. This case has apparently come up often enough to require a written policy. If one forgets that policies concerning trans members have to do with real people, with all the harm these policies cause, it’s tempting to look at this through the crazy lens of Mormon eternal doctrine and believe it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/23 "2024-08-26T15:33:18Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If you truly believe the Mormon religion is true, then you need to stick with it in order to have a prosperous afterlife. If you leave, then you will suffer whatever penalty the Mormons believe happens to those who turn their backs on the religion. Many Mormons are happy to inflict penalty by disassociating themselves from ex-Mormon family members and friends. It’s not as bad a shunning as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it’s still pretty bad. That makes the “social club” aspect very fragile and insincere IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/24 "2024-08-26T16:09:10Z")
Wanting to be accepted by the social structure that raised you is probably pretty much the default for humans as social animals. It’s a huge and scary step to say ‘nah, I don’t think I fit here’, when _fitting here_ is a signoficant part of what ‘here’ even is. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/25 "2024-08-26T18:50:08Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Many Mormons are happy to inflict penalty by disassociating themselves from ex-Mormon family members and friends. It’s not as bad a shunning as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it’s still pretty bad. That makes the “social club” aspect very fragile and insincere IMO. When my younger daughter was in junior high and early high school, she hung out with lots of Mormons. (Later in high school they withdrew to prepare themselves for whatever BYU they were heading for.) She had an id card for the Mormon dances. Quite a few boys with doubts or who had left confided in her what a terrible time they were having. They definitely felt isolated. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/26 "2024-08-26T19:37:41Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > It seems such a stifling and restricted environment. That really depends. Not all religions and congregations are discriminatory. I’ve only ever attended services or events at those that explicitly welcome LGBTQI+ people, members of other religious traditions, and atheists/agnostics. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/27 "2024-08-26T19:40:43Z")
They are taught from a very early age that they are dealing with a very short term sacrifice to gain an eternity of Supreme Advantage. Hard thing to drop. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/28 "2024-09-01T23:57:39Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Mormonism has a doctrine called the Plan of Salvation. Man, that would make a snazzy Place-Mat! ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/29 "2024-09-08T22:03:23Z")
Thank you for that (and your other) informative posts. One thing I always admired about Mormon doctrine (as I understood it) was that instead of the heaven/hell afterlife of much Christianity, the three existences (the lowest of which being _this_ one) seemed not as harsh. If the worst that can happen is coming back to earth, that’s better than an eternity in hell. But I didn’t know about the thousand year detour. Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/30 "2024-09-08T22:41:40Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > If the worst that can happen is coming back to earth, that’s better than an eternity in hell. The worst that can happen in _my_ theology is you spend your life on this actual Earth—the only life you know you’ll have for certain—in fear and misery. Which the Mormon practices towards anyone it labels an apostate or even faithful adherents who are members of marginalized groups very much contributes to, even for those who are not themselves apostates or members of marginalized groups. There is no benevolent way to propagate human misery. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2024, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/31 "2024-09-11T12:38:58Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Thank you for that (and your other) informative posts. > > One thing I always admired about Mormon doctrine (as I understood it) was that instead of the heaven/hell afterlife of much Christianity, the three existences (the lowest of which being _this_ one) seemed not as harsh. If the worst that can happen is coming back to earth, that’s better than an eternity in hell. > > But I didn’t know about the thousand year detour. Ouch. Thanks! I try to be factual about Mormonism, although of course I have my biases. Here is another diagram showing the Plan of Salvation. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Mormon_plan_of_Salvation_diagram_%28English%29_%281%29.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Mormon_plan_of_Salvation_diagram_%28English%29_%281%29.jpg) This has some more details in some areas but also omits some of the others. One key phase which the other omitted is Spirit World. The following are excerpts from the [official LDS site:](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng) > [@](#): > > The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, where those who were wicked in mortality dwell. > [@](#): > > Spirit beings have the same bodily form as mortals except that the spirit body is in perfect form. > [@](#): > > Spirits carry with them from earth their attitudes of devotion or antagonism toward things of righteousness (see [Alma 34:34](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/34?lang=eng&id=p34#p34)). They have the same appetites and desires that they had when they lived on earth. There are two divisions: > [@](#): > > _Paradise._ According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow. Nevertheless, they are occupied in doing the work of the Lord. Spirit World is run the the LDS Church. > [@](#): > > The Church is organized in the spirit world, and priesthood holders continue their responsibilities there (see [Doctrine and Covenants 138:30](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng&id=p30#p30)). > [@](#): > > _Spirit Prison._ > > In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. The spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see [Doctrine and Covenants 138](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng)). If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise. Also according to Mormon doctrine, I will be there because I rejected the gospel. > [@](#): > > Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ. . . But eventually, most of those in Spirit Prison will go to a better kingdom: > [@](#): > > After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom. After the Second Coming, there will be the Millennium, for 1,000 years. People who continue to reject convertion to the LDS church will continue to live in Spirit Prison. People who have died before the Millennium will spend more than 1,000 years in Hell. After the final battle and all that, will be the Final Judgment and people will go to their respective Kingdoms. Satan and his followers from the pre-existance will be kicked out the Outer Darkness, which is going to be an eternal hell, and will be joined by some people, but that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/32 "2024-09-11T13:41:37Z")
It would appear that Christ’s mandate, “Love one another.”, was far too verbose and far too vague to be understood. He really should have tried to make himself clearer. Yes, this is sarcasm. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/33 "2024-09-11T16:56:26Z")
> **[The Mormon church's oldest-ever president has turned 100](https://apnews.com/article/latterday-saints-mormons-centenarian-leader-ecc39facb1b4a9edfe8a7fc68f7ca93b)** > > Leaders of worldwide religions commonly stay at the helm well past retirement age, but it’s not often you find centenarians overseeing major faiths. So his opinions about transgender were probably formed in the World War II era. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2024, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/34 "2024-09-14T07:08:02Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > So his opinions about transgender were probably formed in the World War II era. People are saying that Dallin Oaks, the second in line after Nelson, is the driving force behind the changes. Oaks isn’t much younger, at age 92, and like all the rest, very conservative. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021/35 "2024-11-06T15:52:11Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > One thing I always admired about Mormon doctrine (as I understood it) was that instead of the heaven/hell afterlife of much Christianity, the three existences (the lowest of which being _this_ one) seemed not as harsh. If the worst that can happen is coming back to earth, that’s better than an eternity in hell. My understanding is that even this lowest afterlife, which they call the Telestial Kingdom, is actually a heck of a lot nicer than Earth. According to Mormon scripture, [“the glory of the telestial… surpasses all understanding”](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_and_Covenants/Section_76#89). > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > People are saying that Dallin Oaks, the second in line after Nelson, is the driving force behind the changes. > > Oaks isn’t much younger, at age 92, and like all the rest, very conservative. I met Dallin Oaks’s son, who is also named Dallin Oaks, at an academic conference a few years ago. I didn’t realize at the time that his father had such an important position in the church. (I found out only months later, after trying to Google Dallin the scholar for a list of his publications. It took me some further investigation to understand why all the results I was getting were for a religious leader.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-issues-vast-new-transgender-restrictions/1006021.md?page=1)