# Mormon church: Joseph Smith married girls and other men's wives **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 27, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652 "2014-10-27T15:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/121 "2014-11-18T19:02:52Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Joseph Smith just had the bad luck of starting up his religion after the invention of the printing press. To be fair, he did his level best to fix that. (I know you were setting that joke up, so I had to oblige.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/122 "2014-11-18T19:09:27Z")
I’ve always felt that Joseph Smith had a tiger by the tail with the religion he started and truly didn’t know how to let it go. I think a few televangelists over the years have had similar problems. Of course in _Jesus Christ Superstar_ Judas thinks this is exactly what has happened to Jesus. Brigham Young preached that Jesus probably had multiple wives. Is this something that’s still talked about? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/123 "2014-11-18T19:37:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Brigham Young preached that Jesus probably had multiple wives. Is this something that’s still talked about? No, absolutely not, though there is a folk belief that Jesus was married. After all, you can’t get to the Celestial Kingdom without being married, so a single Jesus just doesn’t compute. Almost all of Brigham’s teachings are filed under “Wacky Stuff that We Don’t Believe.” Just as embarrassing, the early polygamist Mormon leaders taught the Heavenly Father was also a big polygamist and that we are all spiritual children of his many, many wives. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/124 "2014-12-17T22:34:57Z")
Trivia I only recently learned but have confirmed in reliable sources: Brigham Young had a son who was what we would today call a drag queen! The son was Brigham Morris Young and he was about number 35 of Brigham’s 57 children. That is to say he lived as a man (with a wife and 10 kids no less), but he also occasionally dressed and sang as a woman with a woman’s name (Madam Pattirelli), and apparently it was not a camp act but actual opera. He has a [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Morris_Young)with a picture of his drag persona. Coincidentally, Brigham Young was only ever photographed with one of his dozens of wives, and it happened to be with Morris’s mother. No idea why as she doesn’t seem to have been one of his favorites. [Picture](http://signaturebookslibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/30b.jpg). He was their only child and was named Morris after her first husband. I’d love to know what his wife and kids and mother thought of his alterego. More than that I’d love to know whether he was more comfortable as Morris or as Mm. Paterrini. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/125 "2014-12-18T02:01:44Z")
First reaction: Fascinating! Second: Considering the Tabernacle Choir, Morris must’ve had a hell of a voice. Third: Is it just me, or does Brigham Young look like a meaner, vintage, better-dressed version of George “Goober” Lindsey? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/126 "2014-12-18T05:42:23Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Brigham Young had a son who was what we would today call a drag queen! > > The son was Brigham Morris Young and he was about number 35 of Brigham’s 57 children. That is to say he lived as a man (with a wife and 10 kids no less), but he also occasionally dressed and sang as a woman with a woman’s name (Madam Pattirelli), and apparently it was not a camp act but actual opera. He has a [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Morris_Young)with a picture of his drag persona. Yes, interesting, isn’t it? I don’t know if you have seen [this site](http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html) by a gay ex-Mormon, but here is a quote. > [@](#): > > Although I have not found any direct evidence that Brigham Morris Young was a homosexual, he certainly crossed Mormon gender barriers without any negative repercussions, whenever he appeared in public as the Italian opera diva “Madame Pattirini” (see photo at the top of this article). Born in 1858, the 35th child of Brigham Young and the first and only child of Margaret Pierce, he married Celestia Armeda Snow, the daughter of Lorenzo Snow, in the Endowment House in 1875. They had ten children, eight surviving to adulthood. During the early 1870s “Morris” Young drove a horse-drawn streetcar for a living. One popular stereotype of the time was that streetcar drivers were effeminate homosexuals (and in fact, Walt Whitman found many of his male lovers amongst the streetcar drivers of New York City, including his long-time companion, Peter Doyle, who drove a streetcar in Washington DC for many years). Interestingly, Morris drove the streetcar between the Utah Central Railroad Depot and the Wasatch Municipal Baths, which I have documented was an active “cruising” area for homosexual men (who went there looking for anonymous sexual encounters), at least as early as the 1880s. From the 1880s to the early 1900s, Morris appeared frequently in his drag persona. His son, Gaylen Snow Young wrote that, “He would sing in a a high falsetto voice. He fooled many people.” Dean C. Jessee notes that Morris was “often called to perform at stake and ward social functions, where he frequently posed as ‘Madam Pattirini,’ a great female opera singer. An extant invitation lists B.M. Young as manager of ‘a Grand Character and Dress Ball’ held in the large room of the Brigham City Woolen Factory in 1889.” Morris Young also served on the General Board of the Young Men’s Mutual Improvement Association (YMMIA). As you probably know, Mormonism has a horrible record with LGBT rights, and there are an unfortunate number of LDS gay youth kicked out of their homes, becoming homeless, leading to prostitution (ironically, including closeted gay Mormons), drugs and the whole nine yards. > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > First reaction: Fascinating! > > Second: Considering the Tabernacle Choir, Morris must’ve had a hell of a voice. For years, the Tabernacle Choir was the place to belong for LDS gays, and apparently this “sin” (the gay part, not the singing) was known but overlooked by the authorities. > [@](#): > > Third: Is it just me, or does Brigham Young look like a meaner, vintage, better-dressed version of George “Goober” Lindsey? You’re right about the mean part. Arguably, he has more (white) blood on his hands than anyone else in American history outside of wars. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/127 "2014-12-18T05:49:41Z")
Missed the edit window. Homosexuality in Mormon art goes way back. To quote from the same article. > [@](#): > > ``` > And two years later, the lesson in homophobia was "spectacularly" reinforced when George Q. Cannon, First Counselor in the First Presidency, spoke in October General Conference 1897 about Oscar Wilde (who remains nameless throughout the speech) and his "nameless crime": > > ``` > > > [@Cannon](#): > > > > In England a short time ago a man [Oscar Wilde] who had posed in society as a man of culture and of taste, and who lectured upon esthetics, **was found to be guilty of a most abominable crime - a crime for which under the old law the penalty was death; a crime which was practiced by the nations of old, and caused God to command their destruction and extirpation**. This crime was proved against this man, and some of his associates were what are called noblemen. He was sent to prison. His term of imprisonment having expired, he comes from prison, and is now engaged, it is so published, in writing a book, and, we suppose is received into society, though guilty of this nameless crime. And is this common; If we may believe that which is told to us, without going into researches ourselves, it and other kindred wickedness, is far too common. **The same sin that caused the utter destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah! This and other abominable crimes are being practiced. How will these be stopped? Only by the destruction of those who practice them.** Why, if a little nest of them were left that were guilty of these things, they would soon corrupt others, as some are being corrupted among us. In coming to these mountains we hoped to find a place where we could live secluded from the abominations of Babylon. But here in this secluded place wickedness intrudes itself, and is practiced in this land which we have dedicated to the Lord as a land of Zion! How can this be stopped? Not while those who have knowledge of these filthy crimes exist. The only way, according to all that I can understand as the word of God, is for the Lord to wipe them out, that there will be none left to perpetuate the knowledge of these dreadful practices among the children of men. And God will do it, as sure as He has spoken by the mouths of His prophets. **He will destroy the wicked, and those who will be left will be like the Nephites after the wicked were all killed off** ; they were righteous men and women who lived for over two hundred years according to the law of heaven." [emphasis added] > > ``` > This statement leads me to query if Cannon would have been so egregiously hateful, vicious, and murderous in his condemnation of "sodomites" if he had realized his own adopted son, the famed musician and Tabernacle organist Tracy Young Cannon, would later become a leader of the homosexual Bohemian Club in Salt Lake (for which see Michael Quinn's treatment), and would be at the center of a network of homosexual and bisexual musicians at the LDS School of Music (headquartered in the McCune Mansion)? > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/128 "2014-12-18T16:19:41Z")
In fairness, Oscar Wilde wasn’t much kinder in his review of the Mormons. Streetcar conductors as gay stereotype- that’s one I never knew before. (I knew that Whitman’s lover was one, but then he also had flings with soldiers and teachers so I didn’t connect the occupation with the image.) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/129 "2014-12-18T17:32:57Z")
Following up on your earlier question about Emma Smith and her rehabilitation in Mormonism, I have confirmed that the 1979 article I quoted was the earliest one. In the Mormon book of modern revelations, _Doctrine & Covenants_, God calls her an “elect lady.” She is completely rehabilitated now, as evidenced by this talk by a councilor in the Young Women’s General Presidency. > [@](#): > > In 1 Nephi 19:23, we are taught to “liken all scriptures unto us.” As we liken Doctrine and Covenants 25 to ourselves, those sacred words given to Emma Smith can also guide each young woman as an elect daughter of God in becoming an effective teacher, gospel nurturer, comforting wife, inspired mother, lifelong missionary, and courageous leader. Obviously implying that Emma was such a person. It does look like not only did her second husband, have a child, Charles, by an affair in 1864, the year Emma turned 61 and her husband was 58, when the mother was unable to care for the child, she asked Emma to do so. Emma took in the son in 1868, when the son would have been four, and then four years later, Emma asked Nancy, the mother, to come and live as a maid. She died in 1879, and asked Nancy and Lewis to marry after her death to provide proper parentage for Charlies. What a woman. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/130 "2014-12-18T20:37:40Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > (snip) You’re right about the mean part. **Arguably, he has more (white) blood on his hands than anyone else in American history outside of wars.** Could you clarify the bolded? (I’m not all that knowledgeable about LDS history - feel free to fight my ignorance). I know the LDS church has caused lots of bad things. But even considering the Meadow Mountains Massacre, I don’t see how Young has as much blood on his hands as, say, Tim McVeigh. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/131 "2014-12-21T16:46:39Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Could you clarify the bolded? (I’m not all that knowledgeable about LDS history - feel free to fight my ignorance). > > I know the LDS church has caused lots of bad things. But even considering the Meadow Mountains Massacre, I don’t see how Young has as much blood on his hands as, say, Tim McVeigh. I did say “arguably” because of the lack of documentation, uncertainty and a question of responsibility, intention, and direct actions or negligence McVeign’s act of terrorism resulted in 168 deaths while the MMM had 120. There are questions about how much the Mormons were responsible for the Gunnison–Beckwith Expedition massacre, which resulted in eight deaths. There were a limited number of unofficial executions which probably were tied to Young’s enforcers. All of these would probably not add up to 168. However, over two hundred people lost their lives in the 1856 [Willie and Martin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers) hardcart companies in preventable disasters. Brigham had designed the hardcart system. > [@](#): > > Motivated to join their fellow Church members in Utah but lacking funds for full ox or horse teams, nearly 3,000 Mormon pioneers from England, Wales, Scotland and Scandinavia made the journey from Iowa or Nebraska to Utah in ten handcart companies. The trek was disastrous for two of the companies, which started their journey dangerously late and were caught by heavy snow and severe temperatures in central Wyoming. Despite a dramatic rescue effort, more than 210 of the 980 pioneers in these two companies died along the way. John Chislett, a survivor, wrote, “Many a father pulled his cart, with his little children on it, until the day preceding his death.” Brigham had ordered the saints in Europe to come as quickly as possible, but failed to take steps to ensure it would work. The more direct negligence comes from Brigham’s response to hearing that not only were the two handcarts in trouble, but so was the ox team he had commissioned to carry merchandise for his stores and a steam engine. He ordered that the rescue teams help his team first, and forbid them from leaving the steam engine (which was never used) to take on the dying handcart members. A total of about 6,000 pioneers died in transit and many of those deaths could have been prevented had they not rushed them before the transcontinental railroad was completed in 1869. However, polygamy was so important to Brigham, that his entire focus was on creating a place where the Mormons could continue the practice, regardless of the costs in lives. That issue was the essential reason behind the struggles between the “Brighamites” and the Federal government, with the resultant actions such as the gathering of the saints to Utah, the Utah war and the MMM. Had the Brighamites elected to discontinue polygamy and stop its cult-like practices, the LDS church would have been able to remain in the Midwest without these deaths. However, the church would have been completely different than it is now. Both the quantify of deaths and Brigham’s degree of responsibility cannot be proven precisely, but I stand by my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/132 "2014-12-21T21:09:58Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > One example is [Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_D._H._Young), where the “Jacobs” was her original husband, “Smith” is Joseph and “Young” is Brigham, who married Zina after Smith’s death. > > This theme of Smith getting chicks by claiming his life was threatened by an angel happens a number of times. > > Anyway, back to Zina. After Smith is killed, Young claimed Zina for himself, calling her legal husband on a mission to England.For the [LDS church](https://www.lds.org/friend/1989/02/zina-diantha-huntington-young-angel-of-mercy?lang=eng) take on the circumstances: While one poster expressed a disinterest in the human drama and heartbreak these relationships entailed, polygamy was a very lonely and sad experience for almost all of the women. I’m struck especially by the difference in the two links here about Zina. The LDS Angel of Mercy article doesn’t even mention her marriage to Smith, it describes her legal husband’s mission assignment as “abandonment,” it’s just so very disingenuous… I cannot imagine the kind of doublethink one would have to maintain to believe in the precepts of the Mormon church, especially in the current age of ready information. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/133 "2014-12-21T23:46:18Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I’m a recovering Catholic. The Catholic Church has centuries of papal infallibility before Joseph Smith ever pulled the rock out of his hat. You want to talk about issues that had to get plastered over later… > > 😛 And hey, Smith’s 14 year old wife would be nearly twice the age of Mohammed’s wife. You dig deep enough anywhere, you’re eventually gonna hit something. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/134 "2014-12-22T15:36:50Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > I’m struck especially by the difference in the two links here about Zina. The LDS Angel of Mercy article doesn’t even mention her marriage to Smith, it describes her legal husband’s mission assignment as “abandonment,” it’s just so very disingenuous… **I cannot imagine the kind of doublethink one would have to maintain to believe in the precepts of the Mormon church, especially in the current age of ready information.** This exactly. Thank you for understanding what I’ve struggled to say. This issue is enlightening because it clearly demonstrates the doublethink necessary to remain a true believing Mormon. The facts are clear, irrefutable, and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the official canonized version of Mormon history has been deliberately falsified. No doubt that was the case for many other religions, but the difference, as one noted non-Mormon scholar of Mormonism, is that for most of the other major religious movements, we only have the versions written by the winners. We don’t know what the losers were saying. The concept that Smith restored the Christ’s original church is canonized. There is an official version of Joseph meeting God and Jesus when he was 14, then having an angel come when he was 17, eventually obtaining the Golden Plates which he translated as the Book of Mormon, he and Oliver Cowdery had the priesthood restored to them and then they formed the church now known as the LDS church. In order to become a member, one must be baptized, prior to which the candidate must correctly answer the [following questions](https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng). > [@](#): > > ``` > 1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? > > 2. **Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith?** Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you? > > ``` > > 1. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions? > > ``` > 4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship? > > ``` > > 1. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them? > a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman. > b. The law of tithing. > c. The Word of Wisdom. > d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members. > > ``` > 6. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. > > ``` > > Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it? (my emphasis.) The 87,000 missionaries out trying to convert people into tithe-paying members. They teach a [set of lessons](https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/lesson-1-the-message-of-the-restoration-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng) which include the canonized version of history. > [@](#): > > (Talks about the “Great Apostasy” in which the priesthood power was lost) > The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith > > [Heavenly Father] called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Through him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth. > > . . . It was at a time of great religious excitement in the eastern United States. (TB note: this was the [burned-over district](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district)) > . . . Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: > > “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. … When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17). > > In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong” and “all their creeds were an abomination.” He stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). > > . . . > > After the appearance of the Father and the Son, other heavenly messengers, or angels, were sent to Joseph Smith and his associate Oliver Cowdery. John the Baptist appeared and conferred upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery the Aaronic Priesthood, which includes the authority to perform the ordinance of baptism. Peter, James, and John (three of Christ’s original Apostles) appeared and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, restoring the same authority given to Christ’s Apostles anciently. With this priesthood authority, Joseph Smith was directed to organize the Church of Jesus Christ again on the earth. Through him, Jesus Christ called twelve Apostles. Investigators are taught this, they are asked to pray to God for a spiritual confirmation that this is the Truth, and if they accept it, then they can be baptized. This is also similar to the questions which faithful members must answer in order to go to the super secret temple in order to perform the rites necessary to get to the Mormon Only VIP Heaven. This really puts a lot of members into a bind, because it’s increasingly clear to many that the official version is bogus. It also really, really pissed off a lot of people who realize that they’ve been taken in. The sense of betrayal is unbelievable to people who have never been in a cult. (References available for anyone who really cares to know why the history can be shown to be an invention.) It used to be easy to hide everything prior to the Internet age because all of this information could be dismissed as “anti-Mormon.” I personally know a Mormon scholar who was excommunicated in the early 1990s for writing material which is tamer than the material given in the essay. The polygamy essay itself is a masterpiece of disingenuousness. As just one of many examples, it states the the only exception to God’s rule of marriage being only and exactly one man and one woman is when God commands otherwise, for the purpose of “raising up seed” (e.g. having more children). The referenced footnote sends you on a wildgoose chase, referring to a footnote another recently published essay on Utah polygamy. That footnote (not the essay, but only the footnote) acknowledges that second and subsequent polygamous wives had fewer children than non-polygamous wives. So they are contradicting themselves, but you have to chase it. Again, the problem is that unlike telling kids that Santa is real, the church is making these claims, in the name of their god, to adults, and demanding a king’s ransom in tithing and time. Since the evidence is so overwhelming, basically the only option for people is to doublethink. I quoted this comment from a true believing Mormon earlier in the thread, but I’ll post it again. This is in response to the essay. > [@](#): > > In my mind this is what it boils down to. Either Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ, at age 14 and restored the true gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth OR he was the greatest con man who ever lived. A person must read RELIABLE sources, read Joseph Smith’s own words, pray about it and decide for themselves what is true. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I highly suggest you do the same. When you look at the amazing gospel messages of Jesus Christ and the leaders we have today and their loving, wise messages, it is incredibly hard to believe that it all came from a con man who created it all to justify having sex with lots of women. Emphasis in the original. Shut your eyes. Put your fingers in your ears and loudly repeat “The Emperor has clothes.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/135 "2014-12-22T16:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > …The sense of betrayal is unbelievable to people who have never been in a cult… You mean, – The sense of betrayal is unbelievable to people who **didn’t realize they ARE** in a cult… Still, I don’t see anything here that’s any more, or any less, crazy than any other religion. Me, I wonder how people remain Catholic after learning that their Church has been a pedophile support group for at least a century. But what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/136 "2014-12-23T17:56:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > My daughter isn’t going to consider that good news. Ever since she first saw _The Book of Mormon_, she thinks Mormon missionaries are just the most adorable things EVAR, and she squees every time she sees [del]one[/del] two on the street. I remember reading somewhere that an oversized percentage of converts that the LDS receives in Japan are teen girls primarily for this reason. Most people there don’t really care too much to look into the faith. Heaps of teen girls go gaga over the cute Western boys who don’t drink, smoke, or sleep around and end up spending more time with them, and end up converting. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/137 "2014-12-23T18:41:11Z")
I find it hilarious that someone might become a Mormon as an act of rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/138 "2014-12-24T04:51:44Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > In order to become a member, one must be baptized, prior to which the candidate must correctly answer the [following questions](https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng).(my emphasis.) A bunch of true/false questions you’re obviously supposed to mark true, and some essay questions you know up front so you can easily google them beforehand and keep them in your phone. Piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/139 "2014-12-24T05:22:52Z")
Perhaps they give you a pass for 95%. Like say, ‘_I agree to everything except tithing_’. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/140 "2014-12-24T15:08:34Z")
My main problem with the Mormon episode of _South Park_ and the Book of Mormon is that the message seems to be “So what if it isn’t true? If it makes their lives better, what’s the harm?” The harm being Proposition 8, and women being told that they risk damnation if they don’t keep having babies or if they leave an unhappy marriage, or being required to give 10% of your income even if you’re on welfare to one of the richest churches on Earth. It’s not all fairy tales and smiles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652.md?page=8)