# Mormon church: Joseph Smith married girls and other men's wives **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 27, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652 "2014-10-27T15:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/161 "2015-02-06T21:50:54Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The Gods held a Grand Council and Jesus presented what is now called God’s Plan of Salvation[sup]TM[/sup] (like senior researchers get top billing even though the junior guys do the work). Lucifer presented Plan B, which was that we all get saved, but we don’t have free will. The Gods didn’t like that, so his plan was x’ed. He didn’t like that, so he gathered his supporters, one-third of the Hosts of Heaven and there was a giant battle. They lost, and got kicked out. They’re currently roaming around the Earth, tempting us. What is their motivation? They don’t even approve of free will – why tempt people to abuse it? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/162 "2015-02-07T03:29:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sounds like an unconscionable condition under duress, to me. If he _could_ contrive to record the proceedings, I’d be in favor of him signing the statement and ignoring the condition. > > I wouldn’t consider him morally bound by it. Sure, but I don’t think he’ll gain much. He’s winning in the court of public opinion, and doing this would hurt him. He’s already asked to be allowed to have someone take notes and they refused. Excommunication as a punishment for airing doubts is so medieval. It’s a 16th century approach to a 21st century problem. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > Just googling shows he accidentally misspoke. > > \*When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him !” > > So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, ‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him.\* Yes, but did you see the word “apologize” in there? _Everyone_ knows that Christianity involves asking for forgiveness and only a lawyer such as Elder Oaks could possibly argue that this doesn’t imply admitting wrong. Members are commanded to apologize to those they have harmed. The point is so asinine that it belongs in GD here in out own forums. 😉 I was listening to a smackdown of this on a podcast by a some ex-Mormons and one of the guys brought up the Mr. Oaks had been a justice on the Utah Supreme Court, and was surprised that someone of that caliber would say someone so clearly stupid. Others pointed out the Oaks was arguing as an attorney and not as a judge. Great, the apostles, with one of their titles as “Special Witness to Christ” are no worse than ambulance chasers. Sign me up, baby. This is the difference between looking at this as a former member rather than most of you who are complete outsiders, who never believed that they had any special power or authority. Finding out that your neighbor’s cousin cheated is much less distressing than your own spouse. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is their motivation? They don’t even approve of free will – why tempt people to abuse it? It’s because they are miserable and want all of us to be equally so. This is why it’s important to not drink that cup of coffee. They’re going to get kicked out into Outer Darkness after the millennium ends and we all go off to our respective heavens. Along with them go some of the apostates. According to early Mormon prophets, I’d be one. Satan and his followers are bend, stupidly so, on thwarting God’s Plan. But they do it all wrong. According to Mormon theology, anyone who dies before turning eight automatically gets a VIP ticket to the top level of heaven. So, if you’re Satan, historically, why bother tempting people, just teach hygiene and tell everyone to boil their water. Infant and early child mortality drops like a rock and less people go on to become new gods. There’s a debate on how Mormon theology, if it’s really deep or equally as shallow. Whatever it is, the religion is actually a lot more whacky than what most people know. Now that they are mainstreaming, most of the more bizarre teachings are getting swept under the rug, but they are still on the books. These are things like Satan has control over the waters. How to tell an angel of darkness apart from an angel of light (no, not by skin color, that’s how to tell good people from evil). The Garden of Eden was in Jackson County Missouri. Joseph Smith found the stone upon which Adam made an alter. America will be in a fight for her life and a Mormon elder will save her. Just in case you need it, the way to tell angels apart, and this knowledge is important because angels of darkness try to masquerade as angels of light, is to offer to shake hands. Angels of light who are still not resurrected beings will decline because they don’t have a physical body, so you wouldn’t be able to feel them. Angels of light who are resurrected beings will shake your hand. Angels of darkness will accept your invitation but when they do, you can’t feel them. Cool? When I was growing up, I really got into these kind of things. I was ready as a six-year-old to shake someone’s hand to see if they were angels or not. Thank the gods that a pedophile didn’t try that trick. In one of the strangest lectures on astrophysics, the Mormon version of Abraham receives an explanation from God about how the Universe works. > [@](#): > > 1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees; > > 2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; > > 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. > > 4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. > > 5 And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as to its number of days, and of months, and of years. > > 6 And the Lord said unto me: Now, Abraham, these two facts exist, behold thine eyes see it; it is given unto thee to know the times of reckoning, and the set time, yea, the set time of the earth upon which thou standest, and the set time of the greater light which is set to rule the day, and the set time of the lesser light which is set to rule the night. > > 7 Now the set time of the lesser light is a longer time as to its reckoning than the reckoning of the time of the earth upon which thou standest. > > 8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; > > 9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. > > 10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God. > > . . . > > 13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: **Kokaubeam** , which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven. > > . . . > > 16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the **Kokaubeam** that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me. my emphasis. God isn’t using the divine language for anything, why can’t he just say “stars?” I have no idea why I never though through this when I was a believing member. Mormons believe that God revealed all these to Joseph. Unfortunately, God didn’t provide a method to distinguish between revelation and making shit up. Oh, and just for fun, here’s a Mormon hymn. Hie to Kolob > [@](#): > > If you could hie to Kolob > In the twinkling of an eye, > And then continue onward > With that same speed to fly, > Do you think that you could ever, > Through all eternity, > Find out the generation > Where Gods began to be? ---
**Author:** ![Lorene89095](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@Lorene89095](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorene89095)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/163 "2015-02-07T05:02:00Z")
Sooo – I could be baptized as a Mormon and be married as a polygamist wife and not know it?!! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/164 "2015-02-07T10:07:04Z")
> [@Lorene89095](#): > > Sooo – I could be baptized as a Mormon and be married as a polygamist wife and not know it?!! Technically, they wait until the corpse is at least lukewarm, but they’ve been known to stretch that at times. (OK, only at extremely rare times, but it’s happened. While not common, swimming baptisms have occurred. I knew of one in Japan, the guy had no idea that he had become a member. More common is misleading potential converts.) You’ll have to wait for your resurrection to see who God “gives” you to. The church has really backed off trying to explain this doctrine, now all they say is that it will all work out in the end. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/165 "2015-02-12T14:50:52Z")
The Mormon Stories postcast founder and host just got his walking papers on Monday. The NY Times has one of the [better articles](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/us/mormon-church-expels-critic-for-apostasy.html) on it. > [@](#): > > Mormon Church Expels Outspoken Critic > John Dehlin Says He Was Ousted for Backing Gay Marriage and Gender Equality > > John P. Dehlin, the founder and host of a popular podcast for Mormons who question their faith, announced on Tuesday that a 15-member church disciplinary council had unanimously decided to excommunicate him for apostasy. > > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, better known as the Mormon Church, confirmed that he had been expelled and maintained that it had done so because Mr. Dehlin led members astray by publicly proclaiming his disbelief in Mormon scripture and basic doctrines. But Mr. Dehlin said the reason the church expelled him now, after years of monitoring his “Mormon Stories” podcast and Facebook page, was his outspoken advocacy for same-sex marriage and the ordination of women as priests. > > In an extraordinary step, Mr. Dehlin released to reporters what he said was a transcript of a recording he surreptitiously made of the confidential meeting last August in which his local church leaders laid out the grounds for disciplining him. The transcript shows that the church leaders were troubled that Mr. Dehlin had made statements on Facebook and in podcasts that questioned such things as the existence of God, the Mormon Church’s claim to be “the one true church” and whether the Book of Mormon and other church scriptures are true and historically accurate. > > But they also told a combative Mr. Dehlin, according to the transcript, that it is indeed a problem that he has openly supported both same-sex marriage and the group Ordain Women, which pushes for gender equality in the church, because both are contrary to church teachings. The church is used to managing the media, but this one has gotten away from them. Dehlin has been in the podcast / social media arena for a decade and knows how to control the message much better than the guys in white shirts. He’s appeared on a number of news shows and radio programs, in addition to newspapers. Recording the August meeting last year rather than the actual excommunication itself was brilliant. As the [transcript shows](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/02/11/us/11mormons-docs.html?mabReward=A4&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0), the local area authority is out of touch with current Mormon teachings, as he wasn’t aware of a number of inconvenient facts which the church as finally publicly acknowledged. The stake president (a lay leader over six to ten congregations or so) wouldn’t even admit that he may question the historicity of the Old Testament such as the Flood. Despite its attempts to appear mainstream, Mormonism is really still quite fundamentalistic by nature. Very few people openly question the literalistic history which is taught. Well educated friends who are scientists, attorneys and professors will weasel by saying things such as they “have trouble” with the age of the Earth as presented in Mormonism (6,000 years), rather than come flat out (no pun intended) and say the church doctrine and current teachings are incorrect, even in something so obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652/166 "2015-02-12T16:15:48Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The church is used to managing the media Joseph Smith’s own death is a direct result of some of their early efforts in that regard. 😃 At least they’ve moved on in the last 150 years from literally smashing printing presses. Progress! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-joseph-smith-married-girls-and-other-mens-wives/702652.md?page=8)