# Mormon Church OKs Firing Squad Change **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752 "2003-09-05T16:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/1 "2003-09-05T16:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > SALT LAKE CITY - Hoping to clear the way for eliminating the firing squad as a means of execution, a Utah commission asked for and received a statement from the Mormon church saying it does not oppose the change. > > In a one-sentence statement provided Wednesday to the Utah Sentencing Commission, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said it “has no objection to the elimination of the firing squad in Utah.” > The clarification was needed, according to one commission member, because of a purported church doctrine that held that justice was not done unless a murderer’s blood was shed. > The Mormon statement removes a significant obstacle in Utah’s effort to do away with firing-squad executions. > Commission member Paul Boyden said recent letters to the editor to newspapers indicate some in Mormon-dominated Utah still believe the firing squad is necessary for religious reasons. Commission members feared that belief could hurt the chances of the proposed change in the Legislature. [Link](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=16&u=/ap/20030905/ap_on_re_us/firing_squad_church_2) First off, what the FUCK? I once heard somebody in one of the numerous church/state separation threads ask if a church ever actually gave orders to the government. Even I thought that this was ridiculous and would never happen in this country, but church/state need to be kept separate to prevent it from happening. Well folks, I’ve just been proven wrong. Church and State are now melded together more than I thought. Utah is apparently a theocracy, and needs the permission of the church to do away with firing squads. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/2 "2003-09-05T16:46:32Z")
See, this is why I don’t live in Utah. That, and I’m too lazy to move right now. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/3 "2003-09-05T17:00:53Z")
Isn’t Utah a good percentage Morman? I mean in the 90% range, I know at least a few counties are. It’s quite possible that with those kinds of numbers the state wanted to make sure that the church wasn’t going to tell people to vote against changing it and not really asking the church for permision to change it. Hell even 50% would make it hard to change. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/4 "2003-09-05T17:04:32Z")
You certainly don’t mind an entity answering a question about its doctrine, do you? That’s all this was. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/5 "2003-09-05T17:09:46Z")
But what about the propriety of the _government asking a religious entity for its position as a prerequisite for government action_? I’m not claiming it’s a constitutional violation, but it darned sure looks like an excessive entanglement of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/6 "2003-09-05T17:12:07Z")
Edward The Head: Doing a search for the last name “Morman” on [www.sbc.com](http://www.sbc.com) I find only Bernie, Jefferey, and Jennifer living in the state of Utah. Now as to the number of Mormons, that’s likely quite a bit more than 3. 🙂 At any rate, I think the usual number given is from 75~90 percent overall LDS for Utah. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/7 "2003-09-05T17:12:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*You certainly don’t mind an entity answering a question about its doctrine, do you? That’s all this was. \*\* Nope, especially if it slays ignorance. I’d like to see more religions’ leaders stand up and clarify some of their doctrines’ allegorical anecdotes. Although let the snake handlers keep on thinking its o.k., they’re cool.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/8 "2003-09-05T17:20:35Z")
I can’t really vouch for this site, but it seemed okay to me: [http://linguapress.bravepages.com/advanced/mormons.htm](http://linguapress.bravepages.com/advanced/mormons.htm). It gives the percentage of Mormons in Utah as 69%. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/9 "2003-09-05T17:22:58Z")
Was it a prerequisite, minty, or was it merely asking for a clarification? ---
**Author:** ![township](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@township](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/township)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/10 "2003-09-05T17:41:09Z")
It was expedient, is what it was. If you are going to get beat at the polls, why expend all the energy leading up to the defeat. I wish some of the politicians in my area would do things like that occasionally. I bet some of those morons in California have had second thoughts since signing that petition. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/11 "2003-09-05T17:43:12Z")
The Church was obviously just seeking a clarification. Any illusion of control is merely that. Cardinal Richelieu told me so personally. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/12 "2003-09-05T18:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Was it a prerequisite, minty, or was it merely asking for a clarification? Looks like a prerequisite to me, since it appears that the legislature would _not_ have taken steps to change anything without the church’s approval. But quibbling over any distinction between “prerequisite” and “clarification” is rrelevant to my objection, which is that government has no business asking a church what its official position is on matters of public policy. If the church wants to speak out on something, that’s fine. My objection is the government’s solicitation of the church to speak out. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/13 "2003-09-05T18:29:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > which is that government has no business asking a church what its official position is on matters of public policy. > > If the church wants to speak out on something, that’s fine. My objection is the government’s solicitation of the church to speak out. No the government does not have any business asking a church about squat. However, since even if the above of 69% is LDS then they know that if the church doesn’t like something that a lot of people are going to be upset. Right, no, but that’s the way it works sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/14 "2003-09-05T18:40:13Z")
Looks to me like a clarification that the government, not the church, requested on purported information relating to an issue that would affect a good number of people in that church. I still don’t see any violation of SOCAS here. Actually, I think it would’ve been a dandy idea if Congress had considered that option when that moronic member of Congress decided to raise Cain over Wiccan services on base and he just spouted a bunch of bs about the faith. It would’ve saved a lot of hassle to have gone straight to the source for valid info on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/15 "2003-09-05T19:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Looks to me like a clarification that the government, not the church, requested on purported information relating to an issue that would affect a good number of people in that church. Exactly how many people are on death row in Utah, that any significant percentage of the Mormon population would be directly affected by the elimination of the firing squad? This was a case of the State asking the Church to green-light a change to the law. That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/16 "2003-09-05T19:30:51Z")
What is ridiculous is yet another foolish comment from, oh who would’ve thought it :rolleyes:, Otto. You are a liar if you are saying the LDS church green-lighted a change to the law. An honest answer is to say that the church said that there is no doctrinal position against it. You are also a liar if you think the law will only apply to those who are currently on death row. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/17 "2003-09-05T19:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Looks like a prerequisite to me, since it appears that the legislature would not have taken steps to change anything without the church’s approval. They wanted to see if the matter would be worth pursuing, Minty, nothing more. The presidency of the Mormon church reflects the opinions of many - if not most - of the church members… asking the church for its opinion on an issue both dispels the idea, among the people, that the idea might violate their own moral code, and also gives the legislators an idea of how the populace feels on the issue. Remember, you can’t have a separation of church and state with a population that chooses to be religious, unless you ban that church. The population is the government. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/18 "2003-09-05T20:44:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*You are also a liar if you think the law will only apply to those who are currently on death row. \*\* No; he would be a liar if he _didn’t_ think this, but claimed that he did anyway. If he _does_ think this, but it is false, then he is mistaken, not lying. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/19 "2003-09-05T21:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edward The Head \* > \*\*Isn’t Utah a good percentage Morman? I mean in the 90% range, I know at least a few counties are. It’s quite possible that with those kinds of numbers the state wanted to make sure that the church wasn’t going to tell people to vote against changing it and not really asking the church for permision to change it. Hell even 50% would make it hard to change. \*\* i heard they were 90% [Mer-man](http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/he-man/mer-man.html) until He-Man converted to Mormonism and cleaned house. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752/20 "2003-09-06T00:37:54Z")
Actually, this sounds to me like a good example of _fighting ignorance_. There was a mistaken belief among some Morman Utahns (I love that word) that their religion required firing squads. The commission decided to go straight to the source and get a correct, authoritative answer. Same sort of thing we do when we send moon-hoaxers to **The Bad Astronomer** for information. Now when a legislator or voter opposes elmination of firing squads based on Mormon beliefs, the commission can _cite_ the official church statement in rebuttal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-church-oks-firing-squad-change/199752.md?page=2)