# Mormon Dopers: What happened to the original plates of the BoM?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 21, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336 "2004-10-21T03:11:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/1 "2004-10-21T03:11:40Z")
From [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_the\_Latter\_Day\_Saint\_movement:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement:)
> [@](#):
>
> Joseph Smith’s First Vision
>
> Joseph Smith, Jr. was raised in a poor agricultural family of religious “seekers” in upstate New York, during the religiously turbulent Second Great Awakening. Smith’s parents were Joseph Smith, Sr. and Lucy Mack Smith. According to Richard L. Anderson, Smith’s paternal grandfather Asael Smith had refused to join any church “because he could not reconcile their teachings with the scriptures and his reason.” (Anderson, 1971, at 124-40). Likewise, Smith’s maternal grandfather Solomon Mack had experienced a conversion soon before his death, in which he said he saw a bright light and heard someone call his name. (Mack, at 19-21).
>
> Joseph had a difficult time committing to a particular form of Christianity. In Smith’s 1838 history, he recalled that when he was fourteen years old, some of his family had recently joined the Presbyterians, and that he attended meetings of various denominations, but eventually came to prefer Methodism. Smith further claimed that in 1820, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a grove of trees near his home in order to tell him not to join any religion, but that he would be the means of restoring Christ’s true church on the earth again as in ancient times. This is known in Mormon doctrine as the First Vision.
>
> Translation of The Book of Mormon
>
> During the next few years, Smith claimed that he continued to receive heavenly visitors, most notably repeated visits from an angel named Moroni who had reportedly been an ancient American prophet. Smith’s account claims that these visits were instructive in nature, and that in 1827 Moroni entrusted him with the work of translating a book of scripture from ancient gold plates that had been buried near Smith’s home. Smith said that Moroni, as the last of the ancient American prophets to have produced the plates, warned him not to show them to anyone, and that if he were to lose them by any neglect, he would be cut off from God. Using several scribes and by what he claimed was the gift of God, Smith eventually translated a portion of the plates. The translation is now known as The Book of Mormon and was first published in 1830.
>
> While translating the book, Smith claimed he had received a revelation that three other men, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris would be allowed to see the gold plates. After returning the plates to Moroni, Smith and these three went into the woods and prayed. Soon, they claimed, a bright light came down and the angel Moroni appeared. Moroni placed the plates and several other items before the men and commanded that they should “bear record of what you now see and hear.” Their accounts are recorded in the preface to the Book of Mormon. Soon after this event, Joseph Smith recorded that he was also permitted to show the plates to eight other witnesses near the Smith home in Manchester, New York. These eight witnesses handled the plates and detailed their experiences in the preface to the Book of Mormon as well.
>
> Some critics have argued the accounts of these witnessess were inconsistent, or that some accounts changed over time. The issue is complicated by some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon’s early departure from the church.
So, where are those plates now? Could I view them at a museum in Salt Lake City? Has any archaeologist ever been allowed to carbon-date them?
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### Author:  [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/2 "2004-10-21T03:14:40Z")
According to official church doctrine, when Smith was finished with the translation, the Angel Moroni came and collected them and took them back to heaven.
Since this is GQ, I won’t get into what I _really_ believe…
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/3 "2004-10-21T03:27:05Z")
Either Calvin Grondahl or Pat Bagley (they’re both LDS editorial cartoonists – and hilarious) did a cartoon showing a woman triumphantly holding up the Gold Plates in one hand. She’s als carryuing a metal detector an wearing the earpieces, and being interviewed by a reporter at Hill Cumorah in upstate New York (where Joseph Smith said he found the Plates). The reporter is saying “…apparently Moroni just put them back inthe ground…”
I’m constantly amazed at what those guys get away with. I can’t imagine a Catholic cartoonist doing riffs on Church Doctrine like that. Great stuff, though.
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### Author:  [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/4 "2004-10-21T13:47:39Z")
At one point during (Mormon) Sunday school, I was taught that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were led by Moroni into a cavern in the hill that later came to be known as Cumorah, and that it was filled with ancient metal plate records of the Nephites, and that this is where Moroni stored them, and that the cavern will remain sealed until God decides to reveal more of its contents. I can’t recall what the source for this was – some early leader, I think – and I may have some of the details wrong, since it has been years since I had that lesson.
Critics of Mormon history generally say that there were no actual golden plates, which is quite absurd to believers. The 3 and 8 witnesses whose testimonies are printed in the beginning of the Book of Mormon are, in some cases at least, supposed to have seen the plates with their “spiritual eyes” rather than to have actually seen them. I don’t know how accurate this is – apparently both sides can find enough evidence to satisfy themselves but not convince the other side, as is so often the case.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/5 "2004-10-21T17:28:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> From So, where are those plates now? Could I view them at a museum in Salt Lake City? Has any archaeologist ever been allowed to carbon-date them?
Even if Moroni hadn’t taken them back, being gold the plates could not have been carbon dated.
DD
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/6 "2004-10-21T17:39:17Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> Even if Moroni hadn’t taken them back, being gold the plates could not have been carbon dated.
>
> DD
You sure? Gold is never **pure** gold. (. . . unless it comes straight from an angel, I guess.)
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### Author:  [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/7 "2004-10-21T17:44:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> You sure? Gold is never **pure** gold. (. . . unless it comes straight from an angel, I guess.)
Yes, but organic matter is needed to carbon date things. There was a thread a while back about the potential to carbon date a sword, and it the potential is there, but the sword would have been ruined. It is less likely that the go ahead for ‘religious documents’ would be allowed to be destroyed.
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### Author:  [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/8 "2004-10-21T17:47:29Z")
they were sold on e bay.
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/9 "2004-10-21T18:00:18Z")
A copy of one of the gold plates is said to exist (where I do not know). Supposedly, the markings on the plates werenot egyptian hieratic or hieroglyphic symbols, but something called “reformed egyptian”. I am unable to see any reference to such a script being in use in Ancient Egypt.
Anybody know more?
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### Author:  [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/10 "2004-10-21T19:39:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> A copy of one of the gold plates is said to exist (where I do not know). Supposedly, the markings on the plates werenot egyptian hieratic or hieroglyphic symbols, but something called “reformed egyptian”. I am unable to see any reference to such a script being in use in Ancient Egypt.
> Anybody know more?
Like many other “facts” of the BoM there is no contemporary nor historical record of these "facts.’ Most if not all are in conflict with modern knowledge of geography, history, and other disciplines.
If a prophet predicts that which does not come to pass he is a false prophet!
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### Author:  [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/11 "2004-10-21T19:39:51Z")
There are other methods of radiometric dating besides carbon dating. AFAIK none of them involve gold, though it may be possible to design a method for dating gold. Such a method may depend on dating trace impurities in the gold, which of course wouldn’t work for 100% pure gold of supernatural origin. Also, it wouldn’t tell you when the gold was forged into plates – it would likely only tell you when the gold deposits the plates were made from were formed. In a religious context, the method might provide more evidence on the date of creation than on the date the plates were made.
I’m not sure where Mormons believe the gold used to make the plates came from. Did Moroni make them out of gold from some heavenly jeweler, or maybe chip some off the wall of a mansion? Or was the gold for the plates specially created for the occasion? The answer might determine whether dating the plates would give the date the plates were created, or the date everything was created. If the plates were made by the Nephites, the date would probably be when the American gold deposit used to make the plates in the cavern was formed. (Again, probably the date of Earth’s creation in a LDS context.)
Dating the plates would probably destroy them, though. I imagine that if the plates were available, Mormons would not allow them to be dated since they would be destroyed in the process.
ralph124c: AFAIK, no script called ‘reformed Egyptian’ was in use in Egypt or America at any point in time. That is, there are no other known examples of reformed Egyptian script. Further discussion of this would leave the realm of fact.
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### Author:  [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/12 "2004-10-21T19:50:39Z")
Just because this place is supposed to be about, you know, fighting ignorance and thinking straight, and since this was posted in GQ and not, er, a forum called ‘Idle speculation about made up stuff’, I just want to point out that the question involves a premise, namely that these plates ever existed in the first place, and that there is no evidence or reason to support this premise. One step at a time…
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### Author:  [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/13 "2004-10-21T20:24:48Z")
The “plate” that still exists is one of several called the “Kinderhook Plate.”
It was a phony dummied up by several of the townspeople to see if they could fool “Joe Smith.” They took pieces of tin, engraved some strange characters they found on a “tea box” by “making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust”, then buried it. The townspeople gave Smith a job to find “antiquities,” Smith found the planted plates, and the result was published in a Mormon newspaper of the day.
> [@](#):
>
> …Times and Seasons issue states that “Mr. Smith has had those [Kinderhook] plates…” and that “…Mr. Smith will be able to translate them” Under the entry on May 1, 1843 the following is recorded:
>
> ```
> "... I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.
>
> I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharoah, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth."
>
> ```
A copy of the hoax plates can be seen [here](http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/indekind.htm) .
In other words, they have nothing to do with the so-called “Golden Plates.”
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### Author:  [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/14 "2004-10-21T20:30:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> …Just because this place is supposed to be about, you know, fighting ignorance and thinking straight, and since this was posted in GQ and not, er, a forum called ‘Idle speculation about made up stuff’, I just want to point out that the question involves a premise, namely that these plates ever existed in the first place, and that there is no evidence or reason to support this premise. One step at a time… - **ianzin**
-
-
- Well then–obviously–_nothing_ ever happened to these plates, for the same reason that the basement of the Alamo never held PeeWee Herman’s bicycle. Who the hell are these people, are they the ones that gave up on Scientology or somethin’? …
(Oh come on now, you wanted to say it too…)
~
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### Author:  [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/15 "2004-10-21T21:14:31Z")
> [@DougC](#):
>
> -
> -
> - Well then–obviously–_nothing_ ever happened to these plates, for the same reason that the basement of the Alamo never held PeeWee Herman’s bicycle. Who the hell are these people, are they the ones that gave up on Scientology or somethin’? …
> (Oh come on now, you wanted to say it too…)
> ~
No, they were Scientology of the 19th century. They got ran off by their neighbors everywhere they tried to settle, hence they founded Utah out here in the desert. they bowed to political pressure piecemeal, going underground with polygamy before officially abandoning it eventually. They prided themselves on being ‘a Peculiar People’ in the 70’s. Now they’re another mainstream corporate church.
A vocal mormon faction used to patrol this board pretty heavily and go off on anyone who dared examine their beliefs scientifically. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them come along and try to out-shout us soon.
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### Author:  [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/16 "2004-10-21T22:14:46Z")
> [@chorpler](#):
>
> At one point during (Mormon) Sunday school, I was taught that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were led by Moroni into a cavern in the hill that later came to be known as Cumorah, and that it was filled with ancient metal plate records of the Nephites, and that this is where Moroni stored them, and that the cavern will remain sealed until God decides to reveal more of its contents. I can’t recall what the source for this was – some early leader, I think – and I may have some of the details wrong, since it has been years since I had that lesson.
I seem to recall that someone had a vision along those lines, but it was never an actual occurrence.
_shrug_ Mormons don’t expect anyone to believe the Book of Mormon story unless the Holy Ghost testifies to its truth to them. Sure, it sounds pretty odd. So does the idea of a man being killed and them coming back from the dead 3 days later and ascending into heaven. We don’t expect to prove it empirically anytime soon, as we think that would probably be counterproductive in a spiritual/God’s agenda sense.
So the answer to the OP is that the angel Moroni is believed to have taken the plates back.
Everyone here probably knows a Mormon or two. We’re not that uncommon any more. I don’t know if you can call us ‘mainstream,’ but we’re a little more ordinary than we used to be. Not that much, though; we’re still pretty peculiar. 🙂
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/17 "2004-10-21T23:08:59Z")
> [@ianzin](#):
>
> Just because this place is supposed to be about, you know, fighting ignorance and thinking straight, and since this was posted in GQ and not, er, a forum called ‘Idle speculation about made up stuff’, I just want to point out that the question involves a premise, namely that these plates ever existed in the first place, and that there is no evidence or reason to support this premise. One step at a time…
Well, based what I knew of the story, I always assumed the plates Joe Smith supposedly found in that cave were **real,** but probably carved by Smith himself – and scientific analysis might just prove that. So would an analysis of the script by linguistic experts. Didn’t know about the part where Moroni took them away to Heaven. It never occurred to me Smith would have the audacity to base his religion on a supposedly real documentary artifact that he claimed to have found and painstakingly translated, but could not produce or show anybody – nor that he could get anybody to swallow that story. Boy, those Mormons! There’s a word with one “m” too many!
> [@BMax](#):
>
> A vocal mormon faction used to patrol this board pretty heavily and go off on anyone who dared examine their beliefs scientifically. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them come along and try to out-shout us soon.
Well, I sure hope so! I’m kind of disappointed no Mormons have dropped in yet. Can’t wait to see what they have to say about this! 🙂
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### Author:  [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/18 "2004-10-21T23:33:27Z")
Well, claims of the supernatural are difficult and often impossible to prove or disprove by empirical observation. Certain claims can be examined empirically (ESP, for example, or homeopathy) but religious claims generally cannot. Religion is about faith, not evidence – _certum, quia impossibile est_ (Tertullian), certain because it is impossible. For believers, religion does not require proof or even evidence.
Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is true because of faith. For them, this is sufficient grounds for belief, and evidence to the contrary is not generally sufficient grounds to abandon belief. For non-Mormons, Joseph Smith’s claim that the golden plates were taken away by an angel makes it impossible to examine them, and thus impossible to determine their authenticity. His reluctance to show them to others (except for a few witness who give testimonies in the Book of Mormon) is seen by some as suggesting that they were not authentic, and perhaps that they never existed. Actually, a whole lot of the Joseph Smith story can be seen by non-Mormons as ways of covering his tracks – there are quite a few times when evidence he saw disappeared or could not be shared. Some Mormons may even believe that parts of the story aren’t true, but that the belief is still worth following.
Basically, in the presence of faith in the LDS teachings, one believes that Joseph Smith was right, that his claims were true and that there are valid explanations for all the controversial parts of his story. Whether or not the claims are true is not something that can be verified empirically, though, and this is true for all religions. The claim that a certain person or group of people witnessed evidence for the truth of a religion which can no longer be witnessed is by no means unique to LDS.
For each story, it’s not hard to imagine what lies on each side of the boundary of faith. Either Joseph Smith really was reading the golden plates by means of a seer stone in a hat, or he was making the book up as he went along and used the hat to hide the mundane nature of the stone from others. Either the angel Moroni really took the golden plates away from Joseph Smith, or he claimed that they were taken away because they never existed.
Before saying that the former claims are absurd, remember that they are true, possible and not absurd in the context of the Mormon story, and that similar claims are made for other religions within their own context. As dangermom pointed out now (and Tertullian long ago), all of Christianity has beliefs that make perfect sense if one has faith in them, and that seem strange without that faith.
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### Author:  [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/19 "2004-10-21T23:41:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Well, I sure hope so! I’m kind of disappointed no Mormons have dropped in yet. Can’t wait to see what they have to say about this! 🙂
Well, there’s my comment above yours. What do you want me to say, exactly? I answered your question, and a lot of the rest has just been so much commentary about how absurd our beliefs are. I don’t expect you to accept them, so what more should I say? If you have a specific question I’ll be happy to try to answer it, but otherwise I have no interest in yelling at you.
**CalMeacham** , I love Grondahl’s stuff. Bagley is pretty good too, though not as off-the-wall.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [October 22, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormon-dopers-what-happened-to-the-original-plates-of-the-bom/270336/20 "2004-10-22T00:25:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Boy, those Mormons! There’s a word with one “m” too many!
>
> Well, I sure hope so! I’m kind of disappointed no Mormons have dropped in yet. Can’t wait to see what they have to say about this! 🙂
You know what. This thread is closed.
You want a debate or a fight, take it somewhere else.
Don’t open threads like this in GQ.
**samclem** GQ moderator