# Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 1999, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848 "1999-10-29T14:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/61 "2000-01-25T23:30:00Z")
Ark? Ararat? Better take that up in a c/e thread; there are better people than myself to rebut that. I don’t know where things stand today, but just three or four years ago, it was the consensus of Biblical archaeologists that no evidence had yet been found to substantiate a single Old Testament event prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC. (I’m relying on articles and letters in _Biblical Archaeology Review_ here.) Lots of things leave little trace of their passing, given enough time. Yes, the Mormons believe things I can’t personally swallow. But I believe things that David B, Gaudere, slythe, pldennison, etc. can’t swallow. But that doesn’t make them a cult, and it doesn’t make _my_ church a cult, either. And calling Joseph Smith a ‘pathological liar’ won’t win you friends even among detractors of the LDS faith on this board. If you want to question his credibility (perfectly reasonable), you don’t have to go for the most inflammatory language you can think of. FWIW, Joseph Smith never made it to Utah. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2000, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/62 "2000-01-25T23:34:00Z")
I know that. Its worded badly in that section. Damn. -N ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/63 "2000-01-26T00:17:00Z")
Thanks, Newton, you cretin. I posted to accept an apology from another decent poster on this board (that being Polycarp). And what do you do? You show up spouting a lie whilst you bitch about a “pathological liar.” Someone just above this post suggested you show some respect. I’ve a better idea for you since you certainly don’t appear able to evidence respect: sod off. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/64 "2000-01-26T00:22:00Z")
And like clockwork the devil appears… school must have let out. Sod off? Turf Yourself. :0) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/65 "2000-01-26T00:27:00Z")
That’s funny, Newton! I was just thinking “school holidays cause more harm than good” in regards to your latest posting. “Misworded?” “Misworded?” How about “lie?” You said that Joseph Smith was never run out of Utah. Well, I guess that’s true since he never made it there. You might recall that he was murdered, not tried & convicted and then punished for a crime, but murdered by a group of bigots. I’m sure you’d be right at home in such company. In your awesome eighty or so postings, did you bother to actually read this thread or any of the others related to it? I seriously doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/66 "2000-01-26T00:37:00Z")
Yawn Monty! You are even boring yourself now. I said that the wording on my statement led one to believe that Joseph did make it, in fact he did not. Much like you and your banter, someone got sick of his belief and forwarding of a cause that at best was “ficticious” or “manufactured” to make him look as though someone could trust or believe him. It was in Missouri if Im not mistaken. Heres a Pearl of Wisdom for you. Do your homework and locate one shred of truth that came from Josephs mouth. I want specifics details and support of Nephites or Lamanites, or of any of that “tale”. I might recant and apologize, or I may continue to seek the truth and answers you “sheep” seem to fail to ask of your “shepards”. -N ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/67 "2000-01-26T00:39:00Z")
Monty- By the way I want real experts and facts, not the “newly found” or created antics and fabricated findings of LDS “historians” or members. I want the truth to show how right you are by coming from the mouth of a NON-MORMON, with credentials. 🙂 thanks ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/68 "2000-01-26T00:43:00Z")
No problem, Newt. Since you ask, just as soon as you present proof of either of two things: (1) Noah’s Ark, or (2) The Resurrection. How about it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/69 "2000-01-26T00:46:00Z")
BTW: what’s a “shepard?” ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/70 "2000-01-26T00:46:00Z")
Don’t forget that Newton’s proof has to come from a NON-CHRISTIAN with credentials, too, Monty. It’s only fair, since he specified your proof must come from a NON-MORMON with credentials. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/71 "2000-01-26T00:54:00Z")
[http://www.noahsarksearch.com/arcimaging/](http://www.noahsarksearch.com/arcimaging/) By Atheists no less! (US Government sponsored research) Quoted from above site: * * * The assumption is that many ark sightings claim to have seen remains of the ark protruding out of the ice cap on Ararat. Using high resolution satellite images is easier, safer, and more cost-effective than ground expeditions that attempt to survey the mountain year after year. This has been done recently and shows conclusive evidence that the sightings are in fact, correct. * * * -N Now your turn. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/72 "2000-01-26T01:09:00Z")
Uh, **Newt**? It’s generally considered poor form to misquote a source, especially after you have provided a link that will allow anyone to check it. The site: Says no such thing about any sightings being “correct.” The last sentence of your “quote” does not appear at the site. Says nothing about the “search” receiving U.S. Government support. In fact, the site is soliciting donations, but only after they get 501C3 status. If they do. In fact, says nothing at all about finding any evidence of the Ark whatsoever. And you say _Smith_ was a liar? ## Sheesh! Livin’ on Tums, vitamin E and Rogaine ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/73 "2000-01-26T01:19:00Z")
What Manhattan said…plus where does it say they are atheists? Or did your use parentheses imply you are claiming the U.S. government is atheistic? ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/74 "2000-01-26T02:00:00Z")
This must have something to do with the phases of the moon or something. The Mormon debate has arisen again on LBMB, like the mythical Pheonix. * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/75 "2000-01-26T02:00:00Z")
**Newton’s Apple** said: > [@](#): > > Research. Thats all it takes. Christians say the flood happened and that there was an Ark, it is found on Ararat in Turkey. Proof. Ok, this one’s taken care of. No proof, pally. None. > [@](#): > > The Dead Sea scrolls found. Proof. Of what? That people wrote scrolls? > [@](#): > > History supports the bible and the bible supports history. Sure, when revisionists with their own agenda decided it does. > [@](#): > > Through archaeology, history, and art, we see proof of existence. All I can think of is a quote from _Animal House_: "Delta House has had a long history of existence to its members . . " I’m not sure specifically what you’re talkign about here, NA. > [@](#): > > Now someone says that Nephites and Lamanites lived here and no one noticed, mentioned, built monument too, or found relics of them? You wanna show me the Tower of Babel? The Ark of the Covenant? Sodom & Gomorrah? > [@](#): > > I believe that that “religious doctrine” is an ever evolving one that is of convenience and by “popular” decision, rather than holy dictate. Oh please. Do you then think the Bible is not subject to revision and interpretation? Sheesh. I know what you mean, though. You’re miffed because the Mormons believe their religion is a growing, developing , and vital one. No worries. You’re free to disagree. Just please be polite about it. > [@](#): > > SO again, where is the proof, historic, or otherwise? Not even circumstantial evidence exists. SO again, where’s yours, pally? > [@](#): > > Everyone leaves traces of their existence, except of course, those who didnt exist. Like Adam, Eve, Moses, Abraham, Christ, Saul, John of Patmos? > [@](#): > > Joseph Smith was a diluded (sic) and misguided pathological liar. In your opinion, right? Or do you have clinical proof? > [@](#): > > He was run out of every place he was sent to, except Utah, OK, we’ve got this one. A miswording. Whatever. But again, Smith never went to Utah. That was Brigham Young. > [@](#): > > which the US government sent them to, hoping the Indians might meet them first. Sorry, Cap’n. Thsi is just factually incorrect. The US did not “send” the mormons anywhere. > [@](#): > > These days they may be closer to a religion but only since leaving the “teachings”. How gracious of you. OK, it took me a while to write this, so consider it a “mee too” for everyone else who’ve said things more nicely than I. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/76 "2000-01-26T02:23:00Z")
Let me second (or third or fourth or fifth) the call to Newton’s Apple to back up his claims or be branded a liar. There is nothing on the site to support his claims. There is no evidence for his beliefs as he has claimed. Gather it all together and we have, well, nothing. So where is it, NA? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/77 "2000-01-26T02:46:00Z")
My turn? Not until you fulfill your part of it, Newt. First: The site you mention says they are looking for it but haven’t found it yet. What they say they’re doing is attempting to verify _alleged ark sightings_. That’s what’s known in these parts as “not proof.” Second: I agree with the poster above. It’s only fair that your resources not be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim in the case of Noah’s Ark as those three faiths hold to the Deluge Narration. \ ***An Aside** : In the space of eight short days after you registered here, you’ve shown: A) That you are rude, B) That you are unaware of the difference between evidence and opinion, C) That you are functionally illiterate (as your ludicrous\* assertion concerning the ArcImaging site actually saying the **opposite** of what you said it says, D) That it very well may be that you are the pathological liar as evidenced by just a few short postings here, and finally E) You are part of the problem The Straight Dope is out to fight: “Fighting Ignorance.” No wonder “it’s taking longer than we thought.”\* _ **Advice** : It helps to actually know what you’re talking about when you open your mouth. “Here endeth the First Lesson.”_ P.S. Just to be a nice guy, I’ll give you a hint about someone who used to post a lot of what you alleged above: ARG\*\*\*. The \*\*\* is part of the User ID here. Have fun finding it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/78 "2000-01-26T04:45:00Z")
Forgot to add one thing to my posting above. \*Here’s the definition for you Newt, from Merriam-Webster no less: > [@](#): > > lu_di_crous (adjective) > > [Latin ludicrus, from ludus play, sport; perhaps akin to Greek loidoros abusive] > > First appeared 1782 > > 1 : amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity > > 2 : meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish > > synonym see LAUGHABLE > > – lu_di_crous\*ly (adverb) > > – lu_di_crous\*ness (noun) ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/79 "2000-01-26T17:40:00Z")
Vultures: those that cant make a kill on their own, and must wait for death to come naturally. But once an injury or believed injury is sustained you can see em come running. Vultures I know:Manhattan, Andros, David B. Now that Phaedrus is gone, they need someone else to pick on till that person also leaves, I assure you it wont be me. Anyways, the quotation provided comes from THE BOOK mentioned at the site, not the site. The site provides a TEASER of that part of the book. Within the covers of the book (yes some of us get information from books, not just net sites) you will find explanation of how and where this was all done. The original project was funded by the Federal Government (hence my calling it found by atheists as the government has no acknowledgable religion or preferance). So VULTURES, no one lied, you are all just jumping to conclusions. Hopefully you will all jump to them near some high rises next time. The ONLY evidence thus far found of the ARK is wood that has been carbon dated and shown to be of the proper type and time frame. The belief is that further research of the moving glaciers and western saddles will reveal either more wood, or perhaps even a section of the ARK. Now turning EVERYONEs attention back to your defense of your religions ummm err “beliefs”. Your attempt to divert attention away from your own issues is very obvious. Smoke and mirrors and diversionary tactics, is this what is prescribed by the mormon church in reply to questioning of its “history” all 150\_+ some odd years of it. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/80 "2000-01-26T17:41:00Z")
thats a plus or minus, not a space for you to attempt to throw in a number. -N [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848.md?page=5)