# Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 1999, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848 "1999-10-29T14:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/81 "2000-01-26T17:45:00Z")
Wow, a piece of wood was found that has been carbon-dated to be at approximately the same time frame as the alleged ark. Who’d have thought that they had _wood_ back then? Why, and if it looks like it was hewn by humans, too, that must be absolute proof, since no one has ever worked with wood around that timeframe! ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/82 "2000-01-27T06:09:00Z")
Newton: The problem with putting yourself on a pedestal and declaring yourself to be the deliverer of Truth ™ to the misguided masses, is that sooner or later one of two things happens. If your pedestal is weak, and most pedestals are weak, somebody kicks it out from underneath you. If your pedestal is strong, then the delusions you set up for yourself as the deliverer make it weak overtime, as you become more and more convinced of your own rightness. You add more and more “stuff” to your pedestal that what was once strong is now not so strong. Then somebody kicks the pedestal out from under you. When the pedestal shatters and your delusions reveal the true you to yourself, it hurts. For some the trauma of self-realization haunts them for the rest of their lives and they never get back on track. For others the simply construct a new set of delusions. You cannot escape yourself. Originally stated by Newton’s Apple: > [@](#): > > Ark, it is found on Ararat in Turkey. Proof. > [@](#): > > The ONLY evidence thus far found of the ARK is wood that has been carbon dated and shown to be of the proper type and time frame. The belief is that further research of the moving glaciers and western saddles will reveal either more wood, or perhaps even a section of the ARK. Uh oh… do I sense a little bit of quick thinking? Have to keep your balance up there don’t ya? So, is the ark found (and hence “Proof.”) or is it possibly maybe sort of found because they found a chunk of wood (which somebody else already kindly showed as being absurd. Gee, imagine have wood back then which was cut and shaped by man)? Imagine for a moment that I made a post savagely attacking your faith in the “sky-spirit”. Would you like it? If you want to dance that dance give the word. I like having respectful and civil conversations with the theists on this board because they are intelligent and reasonable people and most importantly because they don’t not try to take a holier-than-thou approach. I respect that, and I can see how their faith gives them the strength not to be that way. I see no reason to attack that kind of faith, but your kind of hating faith I despise and I will attack it as viciously as I can. I hope that the other theists will see any such posts that may occur in the future as attacks not on them, but on a disgrace to their own faith. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2000, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/83 "2000-01-27T06:17:00Z")
How much wood must be found to say that it is evidence enough of the Ark’s presence or one time presence? Attack away Glitch, but remember, mine wasnt so much an attack as the out loud shock of how many people could follow a MAN, and his preachings, without checking into them? Koresh? Bin Laden? Yaweh Ben Yaweh? J. Smith? I mean cmon now! ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/84 "2000-01-26T19:17:00Z")
Newton’s Apple whined: > [@](#): > > Vultures: those that cant make a kill on their own, and must wait for death to come naturally. But once an injury or believed injury is sustained you can see em come running. > Vultures I know:Manhattan, Andros, David B. Read: Waaaah! Waaaaah! They’re picking on me and pointing out my lies and mistakes! Get a grip, man. > [@](#): > > Anyways, the quotation provided comes from THE BOOK mentioned at the site, not the site. The site provides a TEASER of that part of the book. Within the covers of the book (yes some of us get information from books, not just net sites) you will find explanation of how and where this was all done. Oh, really? Care to share that info with us? > [@](#): > > The original project was funded by the Federal Government (hence my calling it found by atheists as the government has no acknowledgable religion or preferance). So you lied and now you’re trying to cover it up, eh? Just because something is funded by the government doesn’t mean it’s funded by atheists. Last I checked, most people in the government are not atheists at all. There is quite a bit of difference between upholding the Constitutional separation of church and state and flat-out being an atheist. Here’s a hint: The director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State is a reverend! > [@](#): > > The ONLY evidence thus far found of the ARK is wood that has been carbon dated and shown to be of the proper type and time frame. In other words, you lied when you said it had been proven. Thanks for admitting it. Now, where is this wood that has been properly carbon dated, etc.? I’ve heard such claims before, and, golly, they have always turned out to be not quite what was claimed. Maybe this one is right, but you’ll forgive me for being just a teensy bit skeptical. > [@](#): > > The belief is that further research of the moving glaciers and western saddles will reveal either more wood, or perhaps even a section of the ARK. Gosh, that’s a great belief. Call me when you have the “proof” you declared earlier." Or, better yet, apologize for your attack on Mormonism, especially given your own apparent beliefs built on nonsense. > [@](#): > > Now turning EVERYONEs attention back to your defense of your religions ummm err “beliefs”. > Your attempt to divert attention away from your own issues is very obvious. Smoke and mirrors and diversionary tactics, is this what is prescribed by the mormon church in reply to questioning of its “history” all 150\_+ some odd years of it. Oh, really? What would be _my_ motive to try to turn attention away from your claims about Mormonism? I obviously don’t believe in it any more than you do, but I’m not a jerk about it. Heck, at least they don’t believe in something _really_ stupid like a mythical ark actually having been found. * * * Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/85 "2000-01-26T19:36:00Z")
David, you a a smug, rude, childish boy. and you always seem to be the authority or prover or knower of everything. So what exactly did you prove above? Anything? Lies are direct and intentional, like your writing. Or is this a case of me not taking the time to care and cite and illustrate perfectly, because this is JUST THE F\*\*king internet, not our lives(unlike yours), so do we really care or is this JUST FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. Not for use of real education and fact to be referred to later on a resume as “PHD IN BS FROM SDMB” sound familiar to you David? Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/86 "2000-01-26T19:39:00Z")
Look, **Newtons Apple**. I admit I seriously took offense to your anti-LDS lambast. Not because I’m LDS. Not because I think its teachings true. But because I know a lot of Mormons, I know LDS beliefs well, and I think their religion is no more worthy of ridicule than yours. Or mine. How about this: I am very sorry for my tone. I apologize for immediately jumping on you as I did. I was no better than anyone else who immediately answers the imflammatory witht he inflammatory. Now, then. I disagree with your beliefs. I would very much like you to back up your assertions with facts or evidence that might help me understand **why** you believe as you do and **how** you came to those beliefs. If I don’t understand I can never refute you or agree with you. Personally, I cannot be content with “GSIIBITSI.” If that’s all you have, and it works for you, great. But please re-read my post to you above (and the others), with my apology in mind. I think I raised some valid points. If you can address them, please do so. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/87 "2000-01-26T19:40:00Z")
Vultures? I don’t recall there being any verse in the Bible which said that. Lessee…oh, yeah, this must be it: Proverbs 10:18 > [@](#): > > He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool. Let me know if this is the wrong verse to read. I mean, there’s never a contradiction between one verse in the Bible and another, right? I also received this link in e-mail this morning: [http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/document-1.25.2000.1.html](http://www.reagan.com/HotTopics.main/document-1.25.2000.1.html) So, are you following the Scriptures or are they? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/88 "2000-01-26T19:43:00Z")
**TWEEEEEETTTTT** Back you your corners, kids. David, could ease off just for a bit, please? I’d like to see if he’ll accept my apology and proceed reasonably. Newton, please step back for a second and take a deep breath. For me, at least, this is indeed for education. I **want** to understand where you’re coming from. Really. Help me out here? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/89 "2000-01-26T20:03:00Z")
I left out “_Here endeth the Second Lesson_” in the post immediately above this. & I can’t believe I missed this from our pal, Newt: > [@](#): > > Lies are direct and intentional, like your writing. So what you’re saying is that you’re an ill-informed poster? Doesn’t bode well. “_Here endeth the Third Lesson._” (I should charge for this tutoring!) ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/90 "2000-01-26T20:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > mine wasnt so much an attack as the out loud shock Oh really … > [@](#): > > Can any religion that has such _a pathological liar of a founder_, _a falsely created history_, **not one shred of evidence** , a belief in the return of their peoples to another planet named Colar (sp?), and many other secret society traits, truly ever be respected as a religion. > [@](#): > > Joseph Smith was a diluded (sic) and misguided pathological liar. Nope, no attacking there. > [@](#): > > How much wood must be found to say that it is evidence enough of the Ark’s presence or one time presence? Apparently not very much for you. Would finding a chunk of gold that carbon dates to that time be proof of the Ark of the Covenent? Would finding some powdered sand that carbon dates to the time of Moses be proof of the stone blocks upon which the 10 commandments were written? Find a significant chunk of the ark that looks like an ark and is REALLY REALLY big (like it would have to be) and that would be something. Would finding a shred of cloth 4,000 years from now prove that there were martial artists who wore dogi’s at this time? (unlike finding a complete dogi, or partial dogi) Anything else you want to prove by finding anything that could remotely be that thing? In the time of ancient greeks there were laser pistols. My proof, I found a piece of metal that could be part of a laser pistol. (unlike for example finding a complete laser pistol or a significant part of a laser pistol) Shall I continue? > [@](#): > > of how many people could follow a MAN, and his preachings, without checking into them? Hmm … following a man, you mean like Jesus, maybe? I guess the apostles were misguided fools. > [@](#): > > Golden tablets that disappear, God tells everyone else one wife, and tell these “special people” as many as you can get. He tells everyone else that they can go to heaven, and tells them that they can go to another planet? I guess you’ll be attacking the jewish faith next for their claim to be special people? No, wait, of course, that shows up in your precious Bible and so it can’t possibly be true. So, in light of that, it is, of course, completely impossible that God would dictate special instructions for a select group of people. Nope, can’t be. > [@](#): > > I believe that that “religious doctrine” is an ever evolving one that is of convenience and by “popular” decision, rather than holy dictate. Gee, that sounds an awful lot like Christianity. Funny isn’t how various Christians cults have changed their views on a myriad of things over the centuries. Gee, that couldn’t possibly be an evolving religious doctrine based on the culture (i.e. popular opinion) of the time … no, no, no, that is just us getting more in sync with God. So whad’ya say Newton? Want to go out and stone some adulterors? Want to go beat some people with a whip who we feel our defiling a church? Hey, lets go burn some witches, or better yet lets start a crusade against some unwashed heathens … or better yet how about we torture some people until they die (and go to Hell) or beg God for forgiveness and then we’ll kill them so they can go to heaven? Yee ha! Have some guts Newton. Admit you attacked the Mormon faith in your original post, and apologize for it. Then perhaps, if you are actually interested in **debating** Mormon belief you could try stating it in a MUCH more polite way. You know Newton, I see a lot of similarities between the people you describe in your original attack and people like you who follow Jesus blindly and then take it upon yourself to use that faith as a carte blanche to deliver the truth and judgement by means of contempt. If God existed I hope He would have mercy upon you, but as it is you have nothing to be afraid of … well, except the life you are choosing for yourself. I hope the fall from your chair of judgement doesn’t hurt to much. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/91 "2000-01-26T20:08:00Z")
Heavy Heart. Why is is that this contreversy always ends up with Christians (on perhaps both sides) acting so… well… Un-Christian? Peace. * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/92 "2000-01-26T20:11:00Z")
No offense, Glitch 😉 (we simuposted) * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/93 "2000-01-26T20:36:00Z")
Andros, apology accepted. Thank you too, and I extend mine to you as well. 🙂 Im going to take some time to plan my argument and find more evidence, but this isnt done. 🙂 I shall return! (removing corn cob pipe ala Douglas Macarthur) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/94 "2000-01-26T20:52:00Z")
Now that Newton’s Apple has accept Andros’ apology (though he had nothing to apologize for), allow me to reply to his little snit: > [@](#): > > David, you a a smug, rude, childish boy. Well, that certainly proves that you can back up your claim. > [@](#): > > and you always seem to be the authority or prover or knower of everything. Nope, not everything – but apparently a hell of a lot more than you. > [@](#): > > So what exactly did you prove above? That you were lying and didn’t know what you’re talking about. Well, no, actually, you proved that yourself. I just helped point it out. > [@](#): > > Lies are direct and intentional, like your writing. Care to back up that claim? Or will you leave it there, without backing, like everything else you’ve said here? Pathetic. > [@](#): > > Or is this a case of me not taking the time to care and cite and illustrate perfectly, because this is JUST THE F\*\*king internet, not our lives(unlike yours), so do we really care or is this JUST FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. In other words, you have no intention of backing up your claims, but feel free to attack the beliefs of others because it’s just entertainment to you. Well, you know, this is The Straight Dope. Here, we fight ignorance – we don’t propagate it. If you don’t like it, too bad. Don’t post ignorant things and it won’t be thrown back in your face. ## Now, I can’t wait to see your “proof” – or was it just some evidence – or was it absolutely nothing at all… Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![smilingjaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@smilingjaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingjaws)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/95 "2000-01-26T22:08:00Z")
I cannot believe that this topic has come up again. As usual, it’s already started to have the usual result of bickering, name calling and fighting. There are hundreds, if not thousands of web sites on Mormonism. If you want the offical mormon line, look on the sites Snarkberry mentioned. If you want a Christian viewpoint–with lots of actual documents backing up their claims, check out the Tanners’ site. If you want to know how people feel who left the church, check out [exmormon.org](http://exmormon.org) and the loads of links they provide. Every time mormonism gets debated the result is the same. Snark gets his feelings hurt, Monty has a hissy fit, some Christian starts being illogical and acting like an ass and the whole thing disintegrates into either screaming or overly careful debates to keep from hurting someone’s feeling. If you want to know why other Christian faiths do not regard mormonism as Christian, then look on the websites of different denominations. As a Baptist, the mormons are the latest group we are being called to witness to. (Personally, I think that’s a big waste of time–they are perfectly happy being mormon and I respect their freedom of religion to believe any darn thing they please.) As I have pointed out before, the Mormons are not welcome to join the World Council of Churches or National Council of Churches because their beliefs are heretical to Christians. Jews have asked the Mormons to stop baptizing the victims of the holocaust by proxy because it is offensive (twice because the Mormons broke their word the first time). No I am not going to provide a link–I did it already in previous debates and if you want it you can look it up. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/96 "2000-01-26T22:17:00Z")
David- If this is The Straight Dope and we fight ignorance, then why do we have you (ignorance incarnate) running the place? Seems rather illogical no? Plus may I add, your pointed tongue has offended so many people that you have 1) had your life and person threatened, 2) had threads dedicated to hating you, 3) been the thorn in the sides of almost every real debate. Why dont you get a grip man? Get a hold of yourself? Or does that comment only apply if used by a hypocrite? If so then I admonish you, and demand that you give yourself a warning. No more DavidB, thats your warning. Now get a grip. -N ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/97 "2000-01-26T22:23:00Z")
So, then, your answer is that you have no intention of backing up your ridiculous claims and instead are just going to toss out more lies and insults instead? Ok, as long as we all know where you stand. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/98 "2000-01-26T22:44:00Z")
You smart a\*\*, I plan to deal with the claims and evidence. First though I was going to deal with the public nuisance known as DavidB, as I did. But you seem to have proven my point quite well. You little CS. -N (Ignoring all further posts from DAVDIB from now on and forever) ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/99 "2000-01-26T22:51:00Z")
Oh, stop it already, Newt. Do you honestly think that there haven’t been numerous posters who have said that they could disprove Mormonism? If so, then you are deluded. As far as ignoring David from here on out, I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to do that when you encounter stiff opposition, no matter the poster. So, in retrospect, get the hell over yourself. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![NewtonsApple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a87d85/32.png) [@NewtonsApple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewtonsApple)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2000, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848/100 "2000-01-26T22:56:00Z")
Enlighten me then WASTE: name one other time I have said that, or made actions to that effect. Go ahead. Shoot your mouth off. Now prove it. -N [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormonism/17848.md?page=6)