# Mormons and their \[reputed\] Lies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525 "2011-11-30T02:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/181 "2011-12-19T22:10:46Z")
Some posters have presented the following points: 1. A person who presents falsehoods is not lying if he is not aware of the error (intent). 2. Most religions have mutually conflicting views of spiritual cosmology. Even if one is correct the others are wrong. Therefore most religions are false. So, does it matter? The LDS folks have an admirable life style. The basis of their mythology is demonstrably false. The Missionaries are ignorant of the falsehood so they are not lying to potential converts. Are they really lying? Does it matter? Crane ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/182 "2011-12-19T22:12:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Every religion says all the others are at the least wrong and at the worst evil abominations. I don’t personally put any stock in any of it anymore. This is quite a bit more true of Christianity and Islam than the other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/183 "2011-12-20T02:47:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Do you really know that they were lying or do you just know that what they claimed was untrue? What ‘they’? The founder of the religion was a charlatan and obviously lying. Unless you want to go with the alternate insane explanation. I guess another explanation is that god was just screwing with him and told him all sorts of easily disprovable things rather than the facts. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/184 "2011-12-20T10:31:40Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What ‘they’? The founder of the religion was a charlatan and obviously lying. Unless you want to go with the alternate insane explanation. I guess another explanation is that god was just screwing with him and told him all sorts of easily disprovable things rather than the facts. As were the authors of the Pentateuch, why the special exception for King Josiah’s pet re-writing of pre-existent myths? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/185 "2011-12-20T16:44:34Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > This is quite a bit more true of Christianity and Islam than the other religions. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/186 "2011-12-20T18:57:59Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > See **Zedd** , to get back to the original topic, you are a prime example of what the OP was talking about. You get confronted with uncomfortable truths. And your response isn’t to try and address any of them. It is to ignore them and bear your testimony, and lie about church doctrine while you are at it. You’re not allowed to accuse other posters of lying in this forum. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/187 "2011-12-21T01:33:52Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As were the authors of the Pentateuch, why the special exception for King Josiah’s pet re-writing of pre-existent myths? Josiah was a charlatan? And his motivations were? Really, pointing out the flaws in another religion (which is a foundation for Mormonism, too) is rather pointless. All religions were made by man for various reasons. Some were more self-serving than others (Smith, Mohammed, Moon, Hubbard, etc). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/188 "2011-12-21T02:44:45Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Josiah was a charlatan? And his motivations were? A new national myth for propaganda purposes; inspired, perhaps, by priest-refugees from Israel (lately conquered by the Assyrians) to Judah. That’s [Finkelstein & Silberman’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed) theory, anyway. They believe the fabrications included the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan, and the united Davidic-Solomonic empire of Israel-Judah, as there is no extrabiblical archaelogical or historical evidence for any of these. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/189 "2011-12-21T04:37:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re not allowed to accuse other posters of lying in this forum. Don’t do it again. My apologies to both you and Zedd. That was a stronger term than I should have used. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/190 "2011-12-21T04:40:21Z")
> [@corlet](#): > > True or not? True. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/191 "2011-12-21T05:03:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Josiah was a charlatan? And his motivations were? > > Really, pointing out the flaws in another religion (which is a foundation for Mormonism, too) is rather pointless. All religions were made by man for various reasons. Some were more self-serving than others (Smith, Mohammed, Moon, Hubbard, etc). Before you go on a strawman you should go back a few pages in this thread. My point is that the same reasons people discount the book of mormon apply to their “holy books” too. FYI yes the “found” book of Deuteronomy… suspiciously claimed to have been written by Moses himself centuries before before it was discovered, and all it’s new rules fit Josiah’s desires? Exodus most likely never happened, the unified kingdom most likely never happened, they rewrote most of the first books etc…they have just as many problems as the BOM from a historical standpoint. embers of other Abrahamic religions had no moral high ground to state the book of mormon was false while accepting their own. Anyway I am an atheist…so I have no idea what you are even arguing about in most of your post. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/192 "2011-12-21T06:33:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > embers of other Abrahamic religions had no moral high ground to state the book of mormon was false while accepting their own. They don’t, which is what I’m agreeing with. Yet, it is much easier to look at the motivations of someone of recent vintage who is well documented and make the claim for their misdeeds than for those much further in the past. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/193 "2011-12-21T17:34:19Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Cite? John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me. The Koran is full of statements warning that those who do not accept Islam will go to Hell. This will suffice: Sura XC 10 “While those who disbelieve our signs shall be the people of the left. Around them the fire shall close.” The other great religions do not explain what will happen to those who do not follow the religion. Judaism, Hinduism Taoism, and Shinto are not missionary religions, although they accept converts. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/194 "2011-12-21T23:47:10Z")
BrainGlutton, Thanks for the link - interesting! Crane ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/195 "2011-12-22T18:09:57Z")
The factual basis of the Bible does not impact most sects that use it. The Bible contains the traditions, history and stories of the Jews. The Catholics value Church tradition as much as the scriptures. Most Protestant sects see the Bible as allegory more than documentary. Truths revealed by archaeology do not undermine these faiths. LDS is a special case. It is a uniquely American religion. It’s foundation relies on direct intervention by the Biblical God. It is God who inspired the creation of the United States in order that the Book of Mormon could be revealed. If the Book of Mormon is false then the basis of LDS is false. They do not look on it as an allegory. Of course, LDS has a way out - Revelation. It could be revealed that the BOM is an allegory. A guide for the efforts of men. In that case the missionaries are off the hook. Otherwise they are falsely recruiting donors for a $40 billion corporation. Crane ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/196 "2011-12-23T09:33:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The factual basis of the Bible does not impact most sects that use it. The Bible contains the traditions, history and stories of the Jews. The Catholics value Church tradition as much as the scriptures. Most Protestant sects see the Bible as allegory more than documentary. Truths revealed by archaeology do not undermine these faiths. > > LDS is a special case. It is a uniquely American religion. It’s foundation relies on direct intervention by the Biblical God. It is God who inspired the creation of the United States in order that the Book of Mormon could be revealed. If the Book of Mormon is false then the basis of LDS is false. They do not look on it as an allegory. > > Of course, LDS has a way out - Revelation. It could be revealed that the BOM is an allegory. A guide for the efforts of men. > > In that case the missionaries are off the hook. Otherwise they are falsely recruiting donors for a $40 billion corporation. > > Crane This is very well stated. Thank you for posting it. 🙂 I am a Christian. I have read the Bible from cover to cover. I do not believe all of it. I see it as an anthology of religious writings inspired by God, but not dictated by Him. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/197 "2011-12-25T21:29:51Z")
A recent Pew poll: > **[Top One-Word Reactions to GOP Frontrunners](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2011/12/14/top-one-word-reactions-to-gop-frontrunners/)** > > When Americans are asked what comes to mind when they hear Newt Gingrich’s name, no single word stands out. Some refer to the Republican frontrunner’s asked people to identify the candidates with a single word. For Romney the answer was “Mormon” by an overwhelming margin. It is obvious that the public perception of LDS is an issue. From the posts above there seem to be 3 components: 1. The founder of LDS is believed by some to have been a charlatan. 2. The founding document of LDS is not accepted as a legitimate religious text by most non-LDS sects. 3. The corporate component of LDS is not well understood by outsiders and is considered suspect. Romney, like the missionaries, is the public face of these issues. Will this identification brand him as a liar in the minds of voters? Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525.md?page=9)