# Mormons and their \[reputed\] Lies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525 "2011-11-30T02:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/61 "2011-12-02T18:14:00Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > This is news to me. Are you saying that the LDS considers something like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas to be canon? Or something else? No, I’m talking about things like the Pentateuch, Isaiah, and the New Testament. Most biblical scholars would agree that large swathes of these texts were not in fact written by their putative authors. Mormons are curiously incurious about Biblical authorship questions and pretty much accept authorship at face value. My guess is that the belief in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly” means they can hand-wave away any problems as mere later corruptions. They have painted themselves into a corner with Isaiah, though. The Book of Mormon quotes extensively from Isaiah, including portions written after the supposed emigration to the New World. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/62 "2011-12-02T18:44:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Certainly those high up in the the church hierarchy are fully aware of the truth about these topics, and certainly they hope that most of their members never find out the truth. 😕 Well, the matters you’re talking about are not exactly **secrets,** are they? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/63 "2011-12-02T19:10:05Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > No, I’m talking about things like the Pentateuch, Isaiah, and the New Testament. Most biblical scholars would agree that large swathes of these texts were not in fact written by their putative authors. Mormons are curiously incurious about Biblical authorship questions and pretty much accept authorship at face value. Well, this puts them in the same boat as most conservative Christians that I know. Seriously, the next time you’re speaking with a member of an Evangelical Free congregation, ask how Moses could have written Deuteronomy when that book includes Moses’ death and burial. Better yet, point out the final section of Mark and note that all extant pre-400 CE manuscripts omit it. I doubt you’ll receive much discussion or defense. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/64 "2011-12-02T21:02:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Well, the matters you’re talking about are not exactly **secrets,** are they? Not surprisingly, a quick search with Google will produce a [link](http://20truths.info/) or [two](http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm) that explains all these topics in depth. However, the Church leaders hope that most of the rank-and-file members will never encounter these sources. I’ve heard that one of the promises missionaries must make is to not read or view any material that doesn’t come from an official LDS source while on their mission (If any of the ex-mos here could confirm or deny this, I’d be grateful.) Those not participating in a mission are not required to do the same, but there’s strong pressure to not look at too much challenging material written from a non-Mormon viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/65 "2011-12-02T22:10:03Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Are we told to lie when we knock on your door? No, of course not. But we certainly present the rosiest picture possible, simplified, sanitized, focus-groupified. > > You’re not going to hear about polygamy, black people, or Joseph Smith’s sex life from Mormon missionaries. It’s not in the playbook. Hell, half the missionaries probably don’t know much about these things either. > > I suppose you could call them lies of omission, since I definitely think people should know about the true history of any organization they’re being recruited to. True history and Mormonism don’t mix much. That always confused me. How can you claim divine inspiration (so much so that you have very detailed rules about a lot of things) and then backtrack on things like polygamy and the position on blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/66 "2011-12-02T22:36:17Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Well, this puts them in the same boat as most conservative Christians that I know. Seriously, the next time you’re speaking with a member of an Evangelical Free congregation, ask how Moses could have written Deuteronomy when that book includes Moses’ death and burial. Better yet, point out the final section of Mark and note that all extant pre-400 CE manuscripts omit it. I doubt you’ll receive much discussion or defense. I agree with you. I was defending Mormons from the charge that they worship a completely different Jesus than New Testament Jesus. Their biblical interpretation is in line with more conservative Christians, with the huge caveat that with Mormons, biblical _errancy_ is the article of faith, not inerrancy. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’ve heard that one of the promises missionaries must make is to not read or view any material that doesn’t come from an official LDS source while on their mission (If any of the ex-mos here could confirm or deny this, I’d be grateful.) Those not participating in a mission are not required to do the same, but there’s strong pressure to not look at too much challenging material written from a non-Mormon viewpoint. Yes, there are strict rules about what media you can consume while you are a missionary. Only church literature, and even that was restricted. There was a list of 5 books we were allowed to read besides the scriptures, and they were obviously of a devotional Mormon nature. And yes, members are also _strongly_ discouraged from reading anything critical of or independent from the church. “Garbage in, garbage out,” as a leader once told me. Anyway, when I was a missionary, I read some distressing claims about Mormonism in a pamphlet a Jehovah’s Witness gave me. I was so disturbed, I consulted with another missionary I trusted and he wrote to his dad to ask if it was true. We eventually ended up at an Internet cafe (this was the late 90s) and looked up a bunch of anti-Mormon websites. Unfortunately for me, nothing I read there particularly impressed me and I continued being a Mormon for a while after that. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That always confused me. How can you claim divine inspiration (so much so that you have very detailed rules about a lot of things) and then backtrack on things like polygamy and the position on blacks? There are a million ways to rationalize uncomfortable religious changes. God changed his mind, we’re not ready for it, we misunderstood God. Polygamy is usually explained away as “needed at the time, not needed now.” Racism is always rationalized as “it was wrong at the time, but the Mormon prophet never thought to ask, and God didn’t bother correcting him. Plus, the country wasn’t ready for it.” And so on. When you are a true believer, anything can be rationalized. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/67 "2011-12-02T22:36:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That always confused me. How can you claim divine inspiration (so much so that you have very detailed rules about a lot of things) and then backtrack on things like polygamy and the position on blacks? Because God ordered the backtracking. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/68 "2011-12-02T23:55:12Z")
Apropos of nothing but I had a very pleasant conversation with a pair of missionaries on my walk home the other day. We chatted for a little bit about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. (I mentioned peepstones and got a Huh? in response so either one of us had a one-sided education or they were faking ignorance in order to avoid discussing Smith’s occult bent.) At any rate, their comments seemed sincere enough to me; I detected no falsity in their responses, which is not to say that I’m a human lie detector but that I know a little bit more about their theology than I think the average person does. I didn’t ask any uncomfortable questions like the one about special undies because really the only reason I would have for asking them is to make them uncomfortable and did I really want to be that guy? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/69 "2011-12-03T00:29:24Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > (I mentioned peepstones and got a Huh? in response so either one of us had a one-sided education or they were faking ignorance in order to avoid discussing Smith’s occult bent.) Although it strains credulity, it is a fact that most Mormons don’t realize Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a peepstone in a hat. (Or, at least they didn’t pre-South Park.) I didn’t know this fact until long after my mission and I was in my late 20s. If you polled 100 Mormons, Family Feud style, I’d bet 90 to 95% would say he translated with the Urim and Thummin, which were supposedly ancient Israelite artifacts, kind of like magical spectacles. Anything to do with early Mormon history is a foreign country to modern Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/70 "2011-12-03T00:32:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Uh, so what’s the intermediate level? The Olive Garden? > > I suppose the best devout Jews can expect is the Waffle House. > > Personally, I will probably wind up with road kill. ☹ I was raised a Jew. Had Waffle House for dinner last night, just exactly 24 hours ago. Mmmmm.. scattered covered and smothered. Man, that’s some eatin’. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/71 "2011-12-03T00:38:44Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I recall one religion historian suggested that the “3-in-1 trinity” doctrine was one of those tenets adopted in the early Roman Empire to attract converts who were fascinated by occult mysteries. Competing with mystical cults like Isis(?) they had a doctrine that they could describe as “it’s a mystery, you can’t understand it, only the truly enlightened can…” > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I think it is more likely that it is/was a convoluted attempt to maintain a claim to be monotheistic while adding additional god figures. The New Testament makes three assertions about Jesus. First, he is the Messiah, foretold in the Old Testament. This means that he is a descendant of King David who will restore David’s empire. Second, he is the Son of God. This does not necessarily imply Divinity, because Greek legend has a number of heroes who were descendants of gods or goddesses, but they were mortal. Third, Jesus is God. The first two assertions are found throughout the New Testament. They do not impose logical difficulties. The third assertion is implied in Philippians, 2:5,6 “Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal to God.” It is stated more explicitly in the Gospel of St. John, where Jesus is still considered to be subordinate to God the Father. This does create problems, because Jesus agrees with the Shema expressed in Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God _is_ one LORD,” when he says in Mark 12:29, “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments _is_, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.” Also, Jesus seems to deny his divinity when he says in Mark 10:18, "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? _there is_ none good but one, _that is_, God. And in Luke 18:19 “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good ? none _is_ good, save one, _that is_, God.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/72 "2011-12-03T00:40:28Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > If you polled 100 Mormons, Family Feud style, I’d bet 90 to 95% would say he translated with the Urim and Thummin, which were supposedly ancient Israelite artifacts, kind of like magical spectacles. Hey man, I read Revenge of the Wizard’s Ghost, I know what they are. Either way, I figured it was best to move onto other topics because accusing one’s conversational partners’ religious founder of con artistry often offends. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/73 "2011-12-03T00:47:53Z")
Christianity began as a sect within Judaism. From there it spread to Greeks. Finally it spread to Romans. The doctrine that Jesus was the Messiah was meaningful to Jews. The doctrine that Jesus was the Son of God was meaningful to Greeks. The doctrine that Jesus was Divine was meaningful to Romans, because Roman Emperors were sometimes deified after death. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/74 "2011-12-03T13:58:25Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Although it strains credulity, it is a fact that most Mormons don’t realize Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a peepstone in a hat. (Or, at least they didn’t pre-South Park.) One curious thing in hindsight about that episode is that it mentions **nothing at all** about Mormon doctrine or cosmology; Stan just gets hung up on the implausibility of the founding-historical narrative. They covered the **Scientologists’** doctrine and cosmology, why not the Mormons’? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/75 "2011-12-03T14:07:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One curious thing in hindsight about that episode is that it mentions **nothing at all** about Mormon doctrine or cosmology; Stan just gets hung up on the implausibility of the founding-historical narrative. They covered the **Scientologists’** doctrine and cosmology, why not the Mormons’? Parker & Stone have a fondness for Mormons that they don’t have for Scientologists. I think they grew up with Mormons they loved & respected, no matter how they disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![ballardfam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8797f3/32.png) [@ballardfam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ballardfam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/76 "2011-12-03T15:16:14Z")
> [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > As an atheist-leaning agnostic, and obviously a non-Christian, I’ve tried to wrap my head around the Trinity. But it’s one of those things (sort of like the D.C. Multiverse) where, no matter how many hours I spend on Wikipedia, I’m never any clearer on the concept than I was when I started. Thank you for this. It’s the best comparison for religion I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/77 "2011-12-03T15:37:39Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Parker & Stone have a fondness for Mormons that they don’t have for Scientologists. I think they grew up with Mormons they loved & respected, no matter how they disagreed. :mad: That’s no excuse for chickening out when a chance to do a _South Park_ version of [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk) presents itself! ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/78 "2011-12-04T05:00:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One curious thing in hindsight about that episode is that it mentions **nothing at all** about Mormon doctrine or cosmology; Stan just gets hung up on the implausibility of the founding-historical narrative. They covered the **Scientologists’** doctrine and cosmology, why not the Mormons’? There’s a limit to how much they can cram into 20 minutes. Also, Mormon cosmology isn’t as per se ridiculous as that of Scientology, IMHO. It seems pretty much at the same level as the various mainstream religions. ---
**Author:** ![Zedd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@Zedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zedd)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/79 "2011-12-05T00:00:48Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > No, I’m talking about things like the Pentateuch, Isaiah, and the New Testament. Most biblical scholars would agree that large swathes of these texts were not in fact written by their putative authors. Mormons are curiously incurious about Biblical authorship questions and pretty much accept authorship at face value. My guess is that the belief in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly” means they can hand-wave away any problems as mere later corruptions. You have made so many errors in your pontifications that it is difficult to address only one. So, re., “gospels that Biblical scholars now regard as pseudoepigraphic)…”. First, the word is ‘Pseudepigrapha’. The actual books are not “the Pentateuch, Isaiah, and the New Testament”, but are 20-28 odd books that can be found [**here**](http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/noncanonical-literature-ot-pseudepigrapha/). And the LDS do NOT believe the pseudepigrapha to be canonical. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Not surprisingly, a quick search with Google will produce a [link](http://20truths.info/) or [two](http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm) that explains all these topics in depth. However, the Church leaders hope that most of the rank-and-file members will never encounter these sources. I’ve heard that one of the promises missionaries must make is to not read or view any material that doesn’t come from an official LDS source while on their mission (If any of the ex-mos here could confirm or deny this, I’d be grateful.) Those not participating in a mission are not required to do the same, but there’s strong pressure to not look at too much challenging material written from a non-Mormon viewpoint. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Although it strains credulity, it is a fact that most Mormons don’t realize Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a peepstone in a hat. (Or, at least they didn’t pre-South Park.) I didn’t know this fact until long after my mission and I was in my late 20s. > > If you polled 100 Mormons, Family Feud style, I’d bet 90 to 95% would say he translated with the Urim and Thummin, which were supposedly ancient Israelite artifacts, kind of like magical spectacles. > > Anything to do with early Mormon history is a foreign country to modern Mormons. JS did use peep stones prior to receiving the Urim and Thummim, but not while in the service of translating the BofM. Both of these statements are strange to me. I am a convert to the Church (and still a believer). I received literally hundreds and thousands of anti-mormon literature as a new convert. I went through all of them and none of it swayed my testimony. As a missionary (2 yrs, south africa cape town mission late 80s) and later as a returned missionary I received 1000s more anti-mormon documentation. It strains credulity to me hearing the sudden revelations regarding issues in Church history. All Church’s and religions have darkness in their history. The Buddha thought tigers were evil and should all be killed (in conflict with all animals are sacred), Mohammed has his issues, all protestants (including first southern baptists, lutherans, methodists, Episcopalians, etc…) all had SERIOUS racial problems, far worse than LDS. Does that make any of these belief systems inherently evil? NO. It means they have humans in their midst. Every single faith has a history of bad decisions made by people with failings. Yes, that besmirches a faith. Regarding teaching these controversial issues in Church history and doctrine, I was taught as a missionary at the MTC in Provo to follow the guidance of Hebrews 5:12, “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” For about a year I worked with the Indian communities of Phoenix and Chatsworth (suburbs of Durban), most of whom were either Hindu or Muslim with at best a poor understanding of even non-LDS Christian concepts. Surely even the most obtuse will see the point of trying to first teach basics (like a mortal man, claiming to be not only the Only Begotten Son of God, but to be God, and that he as man/God could die, did die and then resurrected himself, oh, and along the way, this man/God propitiated all the sins for all of mankind and promised that all mankind would also be resurrected. Teaching any of these concepts to someone is very difficult. Now throw into the mix teaching what the nay-sayers will throw at the investigator. Seriously? We were taught to tell the investigator to write down any questions as they arise. Very rarely did I not have an investigator get inundated with anti-morman literature. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/80 "2011-12-05T00:20:11Z")
> [@Zedd](#): > > You have made so many errors in your pontifications that it is difficult to address only one. So, re., “gospels that Biblical scholars now regard as pseudoepigraphic)…”. First, the word is ‘Pseudepigrapha’. The actual books are not “the Pentateuch, Isaiah, and the New Testament”, but are 20-28 odd books that can be found [**here**](http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/noncanonical-literature-ot-pseudepigrapha/). And the LDS do NOT believe the pseudepigrapha to be canonical. I’m pretty sure that Erdosain is referring to the various canonical books like the Gospels and several of the Pauline epistles that no serious biblical scholar now believes were written by their supposed authors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525.md?page=5)