# Mormons and their \[reputed\] Lies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525 "2011-11-30T02:30:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/161 "2011-12-18T01:33:30Z")
**Erdosain** and **Zedd** , both of you dial it back–a lot. The personal sniping is not appropriate to this forum. Knock it off. Anyone else who feels compelled to wade in on one side or the other, you also need to refrain from personal comments. Enough. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Zedd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@Zedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zedd)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/162 "2011-12-18T01:40:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Erdosain** and **Zedd** , both of you dial it back–a lot. The personal sniping is not appropriate to this forum. > > Knock it off. > > Anyone else who feels compelled to wade in on one side or the other, you also need to refrain from personal comments. > > Enough. > > [/Moderating] aye aye ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/163 "2011-12-18T02:25:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Erdosain** and **Zedd** , both of you dial it back–a lot. The personal sniping is not appropriate to this forum. > > Knock it off. > > Anyone else who feels compelled to wade in on one side or the other, you also need to refrain from personal comments. > > Enough. > > [/Moderating] Okay, but I reserve the right to defend myself from being called an anti-Semite for no discernible reason in GD. I’ll concede I could have defended myself in a more civil manner. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/164 "2011-12-18T02:56:28Z")
> [@velosue](#): > > Erdosain - I’m not Jewish but I also found the phrasing offensive…maybe it was where you referenced their younger ‘brother’ as being annoying. But then again since I’m not Jewish I guess I have no right to be offended in your books. **velosue** , are you familiar with Mormonism? The “annoying younger brother” comment is a reference to a character in the Book of Mormon, who is indeed an annoying younger brother as well as being completely fictional. As for “Jews,” I technically should have used “Israelite.” Not it makes any functional difference. Regardless, the comment was intended to show the ridiculous notion that the American continent was colonized by a small ship full of Israelites in 600 BC. I don’t see how “Jew” could possibly be taken as a slur against Jewish people without some seriously creative interpreting, but I’m open to suggestions. Zedd, I’ll [see you in the Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=635336), as I should have done five posts ago. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/165 "2011-12-18T06:32:16Z")
> [@Zedd](#): > > ‘It would sure help’. The LDS Religion is not for everyone. As I have state before, my personal belief is far more accommodating than the typical person of faith. Personally, I do not believe a person will be damned to hell for not being LDS. I do not even think that if a person has as harsh a criticism and doubt of the LDS Church as expressed here will suffer for their criticisms. The only person, I believe, who will come under condemnation is the person who deliberately misleads a person by proclaiming something he knows as wrong to be true. I do not believe you to be malicious in your criticism. > Joseph Smith (at least that is the person my failing memory recalls the statement from) once said that while the faith in the Gospel of Christ, particularly the LDS flavor, may be extremely trying now, there will come a time when the evidence will be so strong that it would be like denying the sun is shining in ones face. Yet people will still deny the truth of the Gospel. That is at the end of days. > As you stated, I have looked into the points you made (all long ago) and found wiggle room for faith. I don’t need proof. In fact, it could be argued that faith is stronger than sure knowledge. See **Zedd** , to get back to the original topic, you are a prime example of what the OP was talking about. You get confronted with uncomfortable truths. And your response isn’t to try and address any of them. It is to ignore them and bear your testimony, and lie about church doctrine while you are at it. I am a priesthood holder. I rail against the church. You can bet your sweet bippy the church holds I will “suffer for my criticisms.” Here is Joseph Smith’s take on people like me, “Apostates after turning from the faith of Christ … have sooner or later fallen into the snares of the wicked one, and have been left destitute of the Spirit of God, to manifest their wickedness in the eyes of multitudes.” ---
**Author:** ![velosue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/13edae/32.png) [@velosue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velosue)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/166 "2011-12-18T11:58:59Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > **velosue** , are you familiar with Mormonism? The “annoying younger brother” comment is a reference to a character in the Book of Mormon, who is indeed an annoying younger brother as well as being completely fictional. > > As for “Jews,” I technically should have used “Israelite.” Not it makes any functional difference. Regardless, the comment was intended to show the ridiculous notion that the American continent was colonized by a small ship full of Israelites in 600 BC. I don’t see how “Jew” could possibly be taken as a slur against Jewish people without some seriously creative interpreting, but I’m open to suggestions. > > Zedd, I’ll [see you in the Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=635336), as I should have done five posts ago. Nope, not a Mormon, I’m just a poor Epicopalian. But historically the word Jew has been and continues to be frequently used as a perjorative. You are right that it would have better and more accurate to have used Isrealite or even Hebrews. I am slightly familiar with the colonization story and while I have no opinion on it specifically, I find it no more difficult to believe that the Isrealites made this trip, just as the Irish did 1600 years ago(and possibly even the phoenicians), or the vikings after them, or the Spanish after them. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/167 "2011-12-18T17:21:24Z")
> [@velosue](#): > > Nope, not a Mormon, I’m just a poor Epicopalian. But historically the word Jew has been and continues to be frequently used as a perjorative. You are right that it would have better and more accurate to have used Isrealite or even Hebrews. Interestingly the Book of Mormon uses Jew 90 or so times. And the original “author,” Nephi, uses it to define himself: And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. - 2 Nephi 30:4 I have charity for the Jew – I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came. - 2 Nephi 33:8 It uses Israelite only once. And Hebrew is also only used once, and that in reference to language not people. The preferred form in the BoM though seems to be, “house of Israel.” That is used 122 times. And even more common is the local appilations to the sub-groups Nephite, Laminite, etc. Using the word Jew to describe a group of people from a book who describe themselves as Jews hardly seems anti-Semitic to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/168 "2011-12-18T18:04:20Z")
> [@velosue](#): > > I am slightly familiar with the colonization story and while I have no opinion on it specifically, I find it no more difficult to believe that the Isrealites made this trip, just as the Irish did 1600 years ago(and possibly even the phoenicians), or the vikings after them, or the Spanish after them. There is solid, irrefutable archeological evidence for a Viking presence in North America. As for the Spanish, well, that’s historical, of course. There is no such evidence for an Irish, Phoenician or Israelite presence in North America. Putting any one of those in the same category as the two in my first paragraph is just factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/169 "2011-12-18T19:11:22Z")
I’m sorta of two minds when it comes to Mormons. On one hand the majority of people I’ve met that identified themselves as Mormon have been sincerely nice and general “salt of the earth” sorts. Their faith played a positive role in their lives and made them want to be honest, hard working and kind. For the life of me I can’t think of a reason to want to change that. On the other hand the book of Mormon speaks of steel, axles, horses and other plant and animal species being present in the new world in a time frame when they most certainly weren’t here and thus, in some ways is demonstrably false. Does the fact that the book of Mormon is clearly flawed negate the positive influence it has on many people? I don’t know that I have anything to really add to this argument, I find Mormon history to be vaguely fascinating but doubt I’ve attained fresh insights to the issues. I suspect that “belief” is in some ways if not a mechanical process then certainly a reflexive one. At a bare minimum it functions in ways other than our rational thought processes do. So when I find myself wondering why anyone would believe what Joseph Smith Jr. wrote (or translated) it isn’t entirely about him, he only serves as an example in a larger question. That question being, why does anyone believe anything they can’t readily prove? Permit me to add a link to the [Moron Expression](http://mormonexpression.com/) website. John Larsen was born into a 7th generation Mormon family and left the church. I find him to be a very intelligent and thoughtful person who questions his former faith without much in the way of spite or bitterness. He’s been holding weekly podcasts for more than two years (all linked on his site) on a wide range of Mormon related topics. If you’re interested in Mormonism you might find him worth hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/170 "2011-12-18T23:07:54Z")
From my secular view I see 4 main aspects to Mormonism: History Mythology Modern Life Style $40 billion corporation LDS history is checkered and strange. The mythology is without foundation. The modern life style is admirable. The corporate aspect is of concern. LDS has always been highly politicized. The goal of LDS is to restore the Kingdom of Zion - a socialist theocracy with the LDS organization at it’s head. Reinstating the United Order would make it a communist (small c) state. LDS apologists use agonizing rationalizations to separate LDS doctrine from communism. Economically the United Order is the purist form of communism. Mormonism predates the term as well as Marx, Lenin and communist political movements. However, LDS and the Soviet Union were the two most successful of the 19th and early 20th century communal utopian societies. LDS is communism that retains the opiate of Religion for it’s masses. So, do Mormons lie? Perhaps not, but they do a lot of rationalizing. Are Mormon politicians a danger to the US? They are if they actually believe the stuff about restoring the Kingdom of Zion and have corporate dollars supporting their candidacies. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/171 "2011-12-18T23:20:24Z")
Post #170 has commingled certain aspects of LDS beliefs for what will happen after the Second Coming with what the LDS church’s goals are before said Second Coming. It also has a political comment itself not based on the reality of the faith group under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/172 "2011-12-18T23:23:32Z")
Monty, Please enlighten me. Where am I in error? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/173 "2011-12-19T00:34:53Z")
Then the issue here is do Mormons lie. That poses the problem of knowledge and intent. It is easy to demonstrate that the mythology in the Book of Mormon is not based on actual events. The origins of native Americans are sufficiently known to disprove the tale in the Book of Mormon. We also know that Smith’s ‘translation’ of a later ancient document (that I believe became The Pearl of Great Price) is pure fantasy. I assume Smith believed his words were inspired, and perhaps they were, but the document has been translated elsewhere and Smith was incorrect. So is it a lie for LDS faithful to present known false information as fact? Crane ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/174 "2011-12-19T01:46:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > LDS has always been highly politicized. The goal of LDS is to restore the Kingdom of Zion - a socialist theocracy with the LDS organization at it’s head. Reinstating the United Order would make it a communist (small c) state. > > LDS apologists use agonizing rationalizations to separate LDS doctrine from communism. Economically the United Order is the purist form of communism. Mormonism predates the term as well as Marx, Lenin and communist political movements. However, LDS and the Soviet Union were the two most successful of the 19th and early 20th century communal utopian societies. Well, as a Mormon critic, I think it’s unfair to say that a socialist theocracy is a goal of the Mormon church. Would they welcome a theocracy that they were at the head of? Sure, what authoritarian church wouldn’t? And we shouldn’t forget that they already had their own theocracy on American soil for decades. But they’ve largely abandoned that mindset and are thoroughly committed to mainstreaming and becoming super-patriotic, more American than America. They know that theocracy just isn’t viable or realistic in the modern world. As for communism/socialism, yes, Joseph Smith did try to institute a rudimentary form of it and failed badly. And, yes, in the temple, we all swear an oath to give all our time and possessions to the church. However, it’s understood that this isn’t an imminent thing and will probably only be invoked in extreme circumstances. In the parlance to the church, “we just aren’t ready to live this higher law right now.” Add to that the influence of far-right wackos like Ezra Taft Benson on the church, and you have an extremely conservative, right-wing, Republican church that would never institute communism in any form, even though the concept is still technically on the books. > [@Crane](#): > > Then the issue here is do Mormons lie. > > That poses the problem of knowledge and intent. > > It is easy to demonstrate that the mythology in the Book of Mormon is not based on actual events. The origins of native Americans are sufficiently known to disprove the tale in the Book of Mormon. > > We also know that Smith’s ‘translation’ of a later ancient document (that I believe became The Pearl of Great Price) is pure fantasy. I assume Smith believed his words were inspired, and perhaps they were, but the document has been translated elsewhere and Smith was incorrect. > > So is it a lie for LDS faithful to present known false information as fact? > > Crane In the words of the wise, immortal George Costanza, it’s not a lie if you believe it. And they do believe it. In the face of overwhelming evidence, it’s true, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/175 "2011-12-19T02:05:55Z")
**Edited to add** It should go without saying that while theocracy isn’t a current goal of the Mormon church, they certainly don’t have any qualms about marshaling their money, members, and influence to enact their largely anti-gay legislative agenda. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/176 "2011-12-19T02:10:00Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Then the issue here is do Mormons lie. > > That poses the problem of knowledge and intent. > > It is easy to demonstrate that the mythology in the Book of Mormon is not based on actual events. The origins of native Americans are sufficiently known to disprove the tale in the Book of Mormon. > > We also know that Smith’s ‘translation’ of a later ancient document (that I believe became The Pearl of Great Price) is pure fantasy. I assume Smith believed his words were inspired, and perhaps they were, but the document has been translated elsewhere and Smith was incorrect. > > So is it a lie for LDS faithful to present known false information as fact? > > Crane It is clear to me that Joseph Smith was not delusional: he was a religious charlatan. I define a religious charlatan as one who uses religious beliefs he does not share in order to win temporal rewards. As the result of the religion he started Joseph Smith won fame, power over his followers, more wealth than he probably could have achieved honestly, and a harem of women. The people who said they had seen the golden plates obviously lied. I wonder how far beyond them the scam extended. What about Brigham Young? Was he in on it, or did he really believe? I have read some of Hugh Nibley’s efforts to rationalize the fraud of The Book of Abraham. They are interesting. I suspect that as a linguist who could read what The Book of Abraham manuscript really said, he must have known the truth. I doubt that Mormon missionaries lie. The ones I have talked to seem like naive believers in an elaborate hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/177 "2011-12-19T04:25:43Z")
The witnesses are an interesting point. Were they conspirators? We do not know what they were shown. They were called to bear witness to a miraculous event. They must have been in awe of their situation. Perhaps they saw the tablets in a spiritual sense. They may not have lied. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/178 "2011-12-19T11:16:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am not sure why an Iron age book holds more credence with you than an industrial era book. While the motivations of the iron age authors are unknown, the one who penned the industrial era one certainly are known and found to be lacking. The guy was a charlatan. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/179 "2011-12-19T18:32:14Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > While the motivations of the iron age authors are unknown, the one who penned the industrial era one certainly are known and found to be lacking. The guy was a charlatan. Do you really know that they were lying or do you just know that what they claimed was untrue? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525/180 "2011-12-19T21:29:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > When I took a Cults in America class in college we were told that Jehovah’s Witnesses are told to lie about certain aspects of their theology to avoid turning off potential converts. Some people may have gotten the two religions mixed up. > Joseph Smith claimed before he founded mormonism that he say of vision of God and Jesus and asked which sect of Christianity to join. He says God told him all of the sects were wrong and their creeds were an abomination in his sight. This was why he founded the religion. So if Mormonism is Christian, then all of the other churches are not Christian, since none of the the other churches have changed their beliefs to be closer to Mormonism. > It is not a matter of controversy to say that Christians are not Jews despite the fact that Christians believe in many of the same things as Jews. The relationship between Mormonism and Christianity is similar. Every religion says all the others are at the least wrong and at the worst evil abominations. I don’t personally put any stock in any of it anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-and-their-reputed-lies/604525.md?page=10)