# Mormons are visiting me this Friday **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 22, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124 "2009-09-22T19:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/1 "2009-09-22T19:41:03Z")
Last week a couple of young Mormon missionaries rang my doorbell. We ended up talking on my porch for over an hour. I did more talking then they did trying to explain why some of their rationale for belief was wrong. I told them if they could produce enough evidence for believing the claims of their church they had a convert (being reasonably certain that there are no such reasons and hoping I could get somewhere in at least getting them to acquire a healthy skepticism). One of them told me the evidence is that Joseph Smith could not have known what he did if it weren’t for his revelations. When I asked for a few examples, he told me I’d have to read the Book of Mormon as a whole. :rolleyes: They gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon and I gave them my only copy of _The Demon-Haunted World_. I also gave the one that did most of the talking my email address and told him to keep in touch. He sent me an email the other day: > [@](#): > > Hey Doug this is Elder Dixon. Sorry we haven’t gotten to you earlier, part of our standards as missionaries is that we only email once a week from the local libary. Its something we choose to do to stay focused and really we don’t have time haha. > > ``` > I wanted to say thank you for even considering the things Elder Gardner and I said on Friday. We really are just here to help people in any way, especially to learn more about the church and answer people's questions. And I hope you felt like we weren't arguing, that's definately not our job. We're here to offer things that we know are true that have improved our lives and if someone doesn't want to know more, that's totally their choice. > > ``` > > Ya know there is a lot of mis-information about the church out there. And like, we know about “Big Love” and all the press on those so-called mormons in cultish colonies with a million wives and oppressed kids. But none of those are an actual representation of our church. Actually, those all depict people from a different religion but for some reason the media keeps calling them Mormons. But hey, everyone makes mistakes. That’s part of the reason we send missionaries like us into the world, to try and help people understand who we really are. Most of us are just normal people. Mormons live in essentially every town in the USA and work in virtually every field. Our job as missionaries is to help people understand the Book of Mormon. We invite everyone to read it, ponder it, and ask God in faith if its true. Its that simple. Anyone who does that and asks with a sincere heart, will get an answer from God. I think about what you said how maybe the feelings we’ve had might be some chemical emotion that’s self-created. I know of myself that I can not make the feelings I get from the Book of Mormon and the church. Nothing else has made me feel this way. It’s beyond my ability to explain in words, but I know as sure as I live, its all true. And because of that I’m willing to devote two years of my life away from home, family, college, career, and friends to tell others about the real happiness I have. The knowledge I have is of God. > > hey g2g. We’re gonna try and stop by on Friday around the same time. Call us if that’s not cool 🙂 have a good one -Elder Dixon So, if they make it Friday, I’m going to invite them in and let them finish their sales pitch and give mine. Any tips from my fellow Dopers would be appreciated. Any points you know that I should make or questions I should ask? Anything else? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/2 "2009-09-22T20:01:48Z")
When I lived in western Maryland, there was a house a few blocks away from me that was always occupied by Mormon missionaries; Every pair of missionaries that lived there (and I met them all over the course of five years) were, without fail, polite, pleasant, _nice_ people. I had them over to talk frequently. I always made it clear right up front that I’m perfectly happy with my faith (I’m Baha’i), and that I was not going to convert, but they were welcome to stop by and we could shoot the breeze about religion or anything else. I usually hosted them for dinner once or twice a month, too. Generally, during the course of our visits, if they would ask if it was OK to say a prayer, I’d say “Sure; you share one of yours, then I’ll share one of mine”. They were always totally cool about that. As far as imparting a healthy skepticism in them, I dunno how successful you’ll be. But from my experience with missionaries, as long as you are not openly hostile, they will be pleasant and friendly. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/3 "2009-09-22T20:28:59Z")
I’m kind of doubting he read your book. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/4 "2009-09-22T20:31:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I’m kind of doubting he read your book. Me either. Mormon missionaries are limited in their reading material - only LDS-approved books. No newspapers. No novels. So it’s highly unlikely - if he is a good upstanding LDS missionary - that he read your book. Might want to quiz him on it… And this: > [@](#): > > Our job as missionaries is to help people understand the Book of Mormon. We invite everyone to read it, ponder it, and ask God in faith if its true. Its that simple. Anyone who does that and asks with a sincere heart, will get an answer from God. If you read it and get a warm fuzzy feeling, it’s from God. If you read it, and don’t get an answer, or get an answer that it’s not right, it’s your fault because you didn’t ask sincerely enough. A classic double-bind scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/5 "2009-09-22T20:33:14Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Any points you know that I should make or questions I should ask? Anything else? Thanks. Don’t try to talk to them about HBO’s Big Love. They’ll get mad and leave. I tried once and that’s what happened. I really wasn’t trying to be an ass. I know the show depicts a fundamentalist sect not affiliated with the official church. It’s one of my favorite shows and I wanted to talk about it with real live Mormons from Utah, since they were nice enough to stop by. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/6 "2009-09-22T20:48:43Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Don’t try to talk to them about HBO’s Big Love. They’ll get mad and leave. I tried once and that’s what happened. I really wasn’t trying to be an ass. I know the show depicts a fundamentalist sect not affiliated with the official church. It’s one of my favorite shows and I wanted to talk about it with real live Mormons from Utah, since they were nice enough to stop by. I am sure you know this, but there may be some who dont-----Not every Mormon missionary you may encounter will be from Utah… ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/7 "2009-09-22T21:03:18Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I am sure you know this, but there may be some who dont-----Not every Mormon missionary you may encounter will be from Utah… Absolutely. I asked these guys about the show after finding out they were from Utah. I wasn’t expecting them to see themselves in the show or anything either. I just wanted to know if they’d seen it and had an opinion. If I met someone from west Baltimore I might ask them about The Wire, similarly. I’ve felt bad about it ever since, especially since they were young guys. I really didn`t mean to insult them or make fun of them. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/8 "2009-09-22T21:16:12Z")
What’s your goal in talking to them? Are you receptive to their sales pitch? If not, why do you think they would be receptive to yours? If you don’t agree with them just say so, you don’t have to make it your “mission” to de-program them. I get the feeling you are intending to score some snark points by taking the piss out of the lads. My opinion - they’re being nice to you - return the favor. As for challenging them, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/9 "2009-09-22T22:00:37Z")
I knew someone would want to turn this into a debate. Can’t you find one somewhere else? I didn’t start this thread to answer a bunch of questions on my motives and answer to accusations that include inferences to me not being nice. > [@Icarus](#): > > What’s your goal in talking to them? I mentioned it in my OP. > [@](#): > > Are you receptive to their sales pitch? I’ll be listening. If they have compelling reasons why Mormonism is actually a religion brought down by God, I’ll explore them. So the answer to your question is “yes”. > [@](#): > > If not, why do you think they would be receptive to yours? I’m hoping they’re open minded enough to be receptive to them. Whether or not I am, is irrelevant, btw. > [@](#): > > If you don’t agree with them just say so I did. Plenty. They’re the ones choosing to come back to my house uninvited. > [@](#): > > you don’t have to make it your “mission” to de-program them. I know I don’t have to, thanks. Nice red herring, btw. > [@](#): > > I get the feeling you are intending to score some snark points by taking the piss out of the lads. My opinion Based on something I wrote? Bullshit! My opinion. > [@](#): > > they’re being nice to you - return the favor. I wasn’t being nice? Or do you have a good reason to believe I won’t be? > [@](#): > > As for challenging them, what’s the point? This is basically a repeat of your first question. Same answer. I don’t have the time or interest to debate this with you further, **Icarus** , and I also don’t want to see this thread get highjacked into a thread about why one should or shouldn’t challenge the beliefs of missionaries who are ringing my doorbell to convert me, so I’ll probably let any further questions you have for me go unanswered. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/10 "2009-09-22T22:11:03Z")
I don’t remember if they were Mormons of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but when I was a toddler my mother took me up to Grandma & Grandpa’s lake cottage. One afternoon she was alone except for me and our collie mix, (hereafter refered to as G). Two well dressed young men came to the door and wanted to talk religion. Mom wasn’t interested in listening to them and asked them to leave. One of them was a little over eager and stuck his foot in the door so Mom couldn’t close it. G didn’t like this and attacked him (he ended up in the ER). He did sue, but the judge “laughed him out of court” and made him pay Mom’s legal bills. Apparently sticking his foot in the door made him an intruder and G was merely doing her duty by protecting her mistress. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/11 "2009-09-22T23:05:22Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I don’t remember if they were Mormons of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but when I was a toddler my mother took me up to Grandma & Grandpa’s lake cottage. One afternoon she was alone except for me and our collie mix, (hereafter refered to as G). Two well dressed young men came to the door and wanted to talk religion. Mom wasn’t interested in listening to them and asked them to leave. One of them was a little over eager and stuck his foot in the door so Mom couldn’t close it. G didn’t like this and attacked him (he ended up in the ER). He did sue, but the judge “laughed him out of court” and made him pay Mom’s legal bills. Apparently sticking his foot in the door made him an intruder and G was merely doing her duty by protecting her mistress. Obviously, this is just a WAG, but based on my experiences with both groups, this sounds more like Jehovah’s Witnesses to me. Personally, I’ve never encountered resistance from Mormon missionaries when I’ve told them I don’t have time to talk right now, but I’ve gotten plenty of resistance, to the point of obnoxiousness, from JW’s. I remember one Saturday morning, I was trying to ready the house for a gaggle of pre-teen girls coming that afternoon for my daughter’s sleepover birthday party. The doorbell rang, and it turned out to be two JW’s, wanting to talk to me about the _end of the world_ (insert appropriately dramatic music here). I explained to them, as politely as I could, that I really did not have time for any kind of discussion, as I was preparing for a birthday party. They _would not_ go away. I literally had to shut the door in their faces (which is something I _hate_ to be forced into doing, but they really did force my hand). Now, to be fair, I _have_ had encounters with JW’s who, upon being told I’m not interested, merely hand me a copy of The Watchtower, mumble something about having a nice day, and go away. But on the whole, JW’s tend to be much pushier, IME, than Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/12 "2009-09-22T23:43:33Z")
As a former Mormon missionary, I say don’t bother. I mean, if you liked these guys and don’t mind hanging out with them and talking past each other, then by all means invite them in when they show up on Friday. But really they aren’t going to be open-minded or receptive to much of anything you say. They really pump the missionaries up full of propaganda and sales techniques. It gets in the way of just having a normal conversation. Don’t forget: you are a potential convert to them; they think they just have to pray hard enough and say the right things and you’ll have a change of heart. They also have a prearranged lesson that they’ll try to give you. They aren’t just coming by to shoot the shit. That being said, I really do appreciate all the people who let me in their houses when I was a pushy missionary, and even more the people who gave me food. Also, it was nice to meet people and have regular conversations with them, but the training gets in the way of that too. There’s always pressure to always be “teaching” and “converting.” That’s why there’s always two of them, to keep the other one on task! Just from my personal experience (I’ve since left the Mormon church), you’ll never convince a missionary of the error of his ways. They’re too young and under too much pressure. The falling away comes later. ---
**Author:** ![UncleNito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7cd45c/32.png) [@UncleNito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleNito)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/13 "2009-09-22T23:48:32Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > If you read it and get a warm fuzzy feeling, it’s from God. If you read it, and don’t get an answer, or get an answer that it’s not right, it’s your fault because you didn’t ask sincerely enough. A classic double-bind scenario. This realization was an essential step in my leaving the church. Once it occurred to me that I could develop a “testimony” of ANYTHING if I tried hard enough, I started looking for better reasons to believe it and found none. **Fantome** , the missionaries are not likely to be very pushy so you can have a friendly chat or just tell them you don’t want to meet with them. Up to you. They are not selected for their sales drive, and it’s not like they can get fired if they don’t hit their numbers, so the factors that make a lot of salesman pushy just aren’t there. Don’t expect a very spirited discussion if you do talk to them, though. They really aren’t trained to do anything other than give prepackaged lessons. I tend to wind up in drawn-out discussions when they darken my doorstep (‘Oh yeah, I’m familiar with Mormons, I used to be one’… discussion ensues), but it’s kinda boring. There are Mormons on this board who are a lot smarter than the average 19 y/o missionary, if you must debate something. ETA: What **Erdosain** said, IOW. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/14 "2009-09-22T23:51:24Z")
Have them watch [this video](http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933) with you… Dum dum dum dum dum! ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/15 "2009-09-22T23:56:32Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > As a former Mormon missionary, I say don’t bother. I mean, if you liked these guys and don’t mind hanging out with them and talking past each other, then by all means invite them in when they show up on Friday. But really they aren’t going to be open-minded or receptive to much of anything you say. > > They really pump the missionaries up full of propaganda and sales techniques. It gets in the way of just having a normal conversation. Don’t forget: you are a potential convert to them; they think they just have to pray hard enough and say the right things and you’ll have a change of heart. They also have a prearranged lesson that they’ll try to give you. They aren’t just coming by to shoot the shit. > > That being said, I really do appreciate all the people who let me in their houses when I was a pushy missionary, and even more the people who gave me food. Also, it was nice to meet people and have regular conversations with them, but the training gets in the way of that too. There’s always pressure to always be “teaching” and “converting.” That’s why there’s always two of them, to keep the other one on task! > > Just from my personal experience (I’ve since left the Mormon church), you’ll never convince a missionary of the error of his ways. They’re too young and under too much pressure. The falling away comes later. Have you done an “Ask The Former Mormon Missionary” thread? I’d be thrilled to ask you some questions about it in there. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/16 "2009-09-23T00:05:55Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Have you done an “Ask The Former Mormon Missionary” thread? I’d be thrilled to ask you some questions about it in there. [Yup](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505211). I found it yesterday and read it. Good stuff. Thanks for the posts so far, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Iridescent\_Orb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@Iridescent\_Orb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iridescent_Orb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/17 "2009-09-23T07:30:21Z")
Religions do not really expect their canvassers to convert anyone. It is mainly used as a reinforcing technique for the congregation. Although it may seem silly, there are several reasons why this is an effective technique: [ol] [li]Repeat any sales pitch often enough and you will start to believe it. [/li][li]The rejection reinforces the exclusivity / specialness of the chosen followers.[/li][li]It is a very public pronouncement of commitment to the religion, making subsequent renunciation more difficult / embarrassing.[/li][li]The more time and effort someone sinks into something, the more likely they are to rationalize the outcome as being favorable or worthwhile. (This is also why there is a positive correlation between the severity of initiation and subsequent loyalty to / satisfaction with fraternities.)[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/18 "2009-09-23T12:01:44Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > Me either. Mormon missionaries are limited in their reading material - only LDS-approved books. No newspapers. No novels. So it’s highly unlikely - if he is a good upstanding LDS missionary - that he read your book. Might want to quiz him on it… The library I work in is regularly visited by Mormon missionaries (they really do emailing once a week to people back home and folks they’ve chatted with), but many of them (though not all) leave with stacks of books and DVDs they aren’t allowed to read with the adult supervision back home. Being able to watch Pulp Fiction and read Wolverine comics must be like Rumspringa to Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/19 "2009-09-23T12:41:42Z")
A few years ago out of boredom I let a pair of missionaries try to convert me. At the time I knew nothing about their beliefs although I had worked with a Mormon who was a nice enough bloke. The two guys were pleasant and the American guy knew lots of music that wasn’t popular in Australia but turned out to be stuff I liked. They were proceeding nicely on their planned program for 2 or 3 visits but then all the tribes in America nonsense came up. I read up about their beliefs and I had to tell them that they were wasting their time. They tried to get me to a meeting or to meet other people but I told them that it would be dishonest of me to go, that the things that they believed as articles of faith were the very things that convinced me that they were kidding themselves. We still parted on good terms. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124/20 "2009-09-23T13:56:54Z")
> [@Iridescent\_Orb](#): > > Religions do not really expect their canvassers to convert anyone. It is mainly used as a reinforcing technique for the congregation. Although it may seem silly, there are several reasons why this is an effective technique: > > [ol] > [li]Repeat any sales pitch often enough and you will start to believe it. [/li][li]The rejection reinforces the exclusivity / specialness of the chosen followers.[/li][li]It is a very public pronouncement of commitment to the religion, making subsequent renunciation more difficult / embarrassing.[/li][li]The more time and effort someone sinks into something, the more likely they are to rationalize the outcome as being favorable or worthwhile. (This is also why there is a positive correlation between the severity of initiation and subsequent loyalty to / satisfaction with fraternities.)[/li][/ol] I agree absolutely with your list; the first purpose of Mormon missionary work is to convert the missionary and ensure a life-long commitment to the church. Sunk costs play a big role. However, it’s wrong to say that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t expect their canvassers to convert anyone. In fact, many people actually do convert to both religions (although fewer and fewer, in my opinion). It looks to outsiders like no one converts simply because of the inefficiency of the system. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t have to pay for their missionaries so they don’t care how many hours are wasted pitching to uninterested people. All that wasted time is chalked up to the purposes on your list, converting the converters. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-are-visiting-me-this-friday/511124.md?page=2)