# Mormons aren't Mormons anymore **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 18, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822 "2018-08-18T06:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/141 "2018-08-22T19:48:38Z")
It’s clear from the lack of published complaints that the vast majority of women in Afghanistan are doing perfectly fine as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/142 "2018-08-22T20:14:53Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I’ve figured out one of the puzzles. Mormons are supposed to avoid alcohol, right? But the surprising thing is, it’s not because of the evils of drunkenness or the health effects. It’s all to do with names! LDSers avoid alcohol because of the chemical compound that would result: Ethyl Mormon. There’s no business like show business. 🙂 That’s a truly terrible pun. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/143 "2018-08-22T20:21:56Z")
So if Mormon was supposed to mean “More Good” then would lesmon be “less good”? I’m not sure, when weighed against the other extant world religions and their histories and current actions(Catholic sex abuse coverups anyone?), that lesmon is objectively accurate either. I suggest Mehmons. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/144 "2018-08-22T21:30:00Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > Ah. I am not a dude, hence my confusion. I’m a woman who lives in Utah and when I’ve already stated my opinion AND shown a link showing research to back it up, I’m not going to repeat myself so don’t bother asking. It isn’t just Utah. I live in a part of California with lots of Mormons, and my daughter knew a lot of them in early high school. Her Mormon friends pretty much universally dropped out of college as soon as they snagged a husband and started pumping out babies. All her non-Mormon friends got degrees - and also got married. By senior year the Mormon girls withdrew from most of their non-Mormon friends. They were all nice, and the parents I knew were nice, but their behavior was like they were living in the 1950s. Is it similar in Utah? ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/145 "2018-08-22T21:54:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It isn’t just Utah. I live in a part of California with lots of Mormons, and my daughter knew a lot of them in early high school. Her Mormon friends pretty much universally dropped out of college as soon as they snagged a husband and started pumping out babies. All her non-Mormon friends got degrees - and also got married. > By senior year the Mormon girls withdrew from most of their non-Mormon friends. > They were all nice, and the parents I knew were nice, but their behavior was like they were living in the 1950s. > Is it similar in Utah? Very much so. From a young age women are taught their husband will elevate them by taking them to the Temple and making certain covenants. They’re taught these rituals affecting their afterlife are more important than what’s going on in their current earthly (Terrestrial) life. Here’s [a sign recently seen](https://i.redd.it/swbkmh56ke611.jpg) at apartments adjacent to BYU at Rexburg, Idaho. Subtle, no? Even before their usual 2 years are up, male missionaries are encouraged to marry as soon as they can after they get home; as one person told me, “It’s b/c they’ll be so lonely after being w/ a companion 24/7 for the last 2 years.” The trope of a returned missionary buying an engagement ring as soon as he can afford it, whether or not he’s seeing someone, is a trope b/c it happens. They’re often married within 6 months of returning, after a short engagement (90-120 days). They’re encouraged to ‘strengthen the covenant’ of their Temple marriage by having a baby as soon as they can. While these aren’t 100% of the people, of course, does this explain what you’ve seen? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/146 "2018-08-22T23:52:49Z")
Just ran across [this unintentionally hilarious story from a Mormonette](https://www.chronicallybeautifullife.com/chronically-beautiful/understanding-betrayal-trauma-part-1-this-is-my-betrayal-trauma). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/147 "2018-08-23T00:06:29Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Just ran across [this unintentionally hilarious story from a Mormonette](https://www.chronicallybeautifullife.com/chronically-beautiful/understanding-betrayal-trauma-part-1-this-is-my-betrayal-trauma). Wow. I sure hope that is a Poe, but if not, that bitch is seriously fucked up, and not in a good way. One week before her ideal marriage she discovers that her man has _looked at porn_ and her life is ruined forever. Did she ever consider that one reason may have been that blow job she denied him until marriage? Hasn’t she ever heard of [God’s Loophole?](https://youtu.be/j8ZF_R_j0OY) ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/148 "2018-08-23T03:32:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you think this sentiment is a majority or minority opinion among women living in Utah? I grew up in Utah. And HD’s question is a good one. The California Mormons were different from Utah Mormons. California Mormons drank Coke. Utah Mormons didn’t. Not comparing Women and Coke, just saying there were differences between Non-Utah and Utah Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/149 "2018-08-23T04:32:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Wow. I sure hope that is a Poe, but if not, that bitch is seriously fucked up, and not in a good way. One week before her ideal marriage she discovers that her man has _looked at porn_ and her life is ruined forever. Did she ever consider that one reason may have been that blow job she denied him until marriage? Hasn’t she ever heard of [God’s Loophole?](https://youtu.be/j8ZF_R_j0OY) Nope, unfortunately, this is not Poe’s Law. This is actually quite typical in Mormonism where sneaking peeks at Victoria Secrets is placed in the came category as Bill Cosby or [Arthur Gary Bishop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Gary_Bishop). The Mormon church is constantly hammering on the “sin” of pornography and suggesting it directly leads to homosexuality and adultery. You can’t listen to a General Conference without being constantly reminded that porn is one of the most pernicious sins ever. Here are a couple examples of Mormon teachings on pron, both of which come from the official Mormon website. [First](https://www.mormon.org/blog/pornography-addiction). > [@](#): > > A healthy relationship develops through a series of trust-building communications, commitments, and experiences as we share feelings, vulnerabilities, challenges, and successes. Over time, we put our emotions into someone else’s care, commit to share our deepest feelings and physical expressions with only one person, and seal that commitment through marriage. The physical expression of our feelings is the culmination of all those acts of trust. Pornography shortcuts the process and goes straight to a physical act. And without the emotional attachment, the act of viewing pornography is ultimately unsatisfying, which leads to viewing more in an addictive search for a connection that can never be found. > > \*\*Realizing the Repercussions of Pornography > > \*\*So what are the dangers? Well, for the single person, pornography creates an emotional void that separates him or her from deeply satisfying relationships. Because of this inability to connect, pornography often causes depression and a feeling of loss of identity. For the married person, pornography builds a wall between two people who are trying to love each other but who likewise can’t quite connect anymore. The marriage can become superficial and often ends. > > Worst of all, pornography addiction is a real affliction. It interferes with our ability to have a normal relationship, to be productive at work, to understand our purpose in life, and to feel God’s love. Of course, there is no level of healthy pornography. Any viewing of any nekkid bodies is evil, and will inevitably lead to sex addiction. Here’s a talk by one of the senior‵leaders of the church, Dallin Oaks who [directly links viewing porn with adultery](https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/pornography?lang=eng) with quotes from the Book of Mormon > [@](#): > > In the second chapter of the book that bears his name, Jacob condemns men for their “whoredoms” (Jacob 2:23, 28). He told them they had “broken the hearts of [their] tender wives, and lost the confidence of [their] children, because of [their] bad examples before them” (Jacob 2:35). > > What were these grossly wicked “whoredoms”? No doubt some men were already guilty of evil acts. But the main focus of Jacob’s great sermon was not with evil acts completed, but with evil acts contemplated. > > Jacob began his sermon by telling the men that “as yet, [they had] been obedient unto the word of the Lord” (Jacob 2:4). However, he then told them he knew their thoughts, that they were “beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable … unto God” (Jacob 2:5). “I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts” (Jacob 2:6), he added. Jacob was speaking as Jesus spoke when He said, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matt. 5:28; see also 3 Ne. 12:28; D&C 59:6; D&C 63:16). Within Mormonism, adultery is the second greatest sin, save murder. Far worse than little things such as torturing children or abusing wives and kids. (Yes, this is personal, if you haven’t guessed.) So, any viewing of porn becomes a sign of addiction, is a sin equivalent to fucking the neighbor’s wife and gets a scarlet “P” or “M” for masturbation branded on them. People stupid enough to admit masturbating can be punished by their bishop by not allowing them to partake in the sacrament, a very public ritual. Everyone is looking of course and the worst of often assumed. On the popular Mormon Stories podcast, they have discussed where guys who have looked a few times at porn get branded as a sex addict and then are sent to Mormon church run 12 Step sex addiction programs. Obviously, it becomes a huge deal, leading guys to feel all that much more guilty about it. For the fiancé of the author of that piece, what exactly is he supposed to do? Admit that sometime he look at nakkid women on the net? Then he’s admitting to virtually committing the second worst sin possible and being a monster. He can’t come clean because he was only a week away from his scheduled temple marriage. An understanding bishop may allow him to quickly repent and go one with it, but with the Mormon leadership roulette, a hard ass could withhold his temple recommend, forcing him into public shame. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/150 "2018-08-23T04:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > People stupid enough to admit masturbating can be punished by their bishop Ironicly, “punishing the bishop” is what I _call_ masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/151 "2018-08-23T05:29:19Z")
I was seeking permission to participate in baptisms for the dead. I was maybe 12 years old. In the interview the bishop asked me if I masturbated. And I asked,“What is that”? He described it. And I replied, “Disgusting! People actually do that”? So, I didn’t have to lie, and got the recommend for the temple. This is a true story. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/152 "2018-08-23T06:55:47Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > While these aren’t 100% of the people, of course, does this explain what you’ve seen? I got this second hand through my daughter, but that makes sense. A lot of these kids - most of them I think - went to one BYU or another. The interesting thing to me is that the behavior is the same here in a very liberal and diverse environment as it is in Utah. Thanks for the details. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/153 "2018-08-23T06:57:58Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I grew up in Utah. And HD’s question is a good one. > > The California Mormons were different from Utah Mormons. California Mormons drank Coke. Utah Mormons didn’t. > > Not comparing Women and Coke, just saying there were differences between Non-Utah and Utah Mormons. Not the ones my daughter knew. We kept Sprite in the refrigerator just for them. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/154 "2018-08-23T07:14:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m unaware of this issue. How do they perceive rape is “handled by the LDS Church” today and what change(s) would they like to see implemented? I’m reluctant to answer because you’ll be getting this second-hand and from a non-Mormon, and I may not do this justice. As I understand it, they believe that too often, women who have been raped are blamed instead of supported, particularly by bishops. Changes in the way the LDS Church and bishops in particular, treat rape victims–no blame, no shame, more support and compassion. One woman who developed PTSD from a rape was told by a bishop she still had nightmares because she hadn’t fully repented for not having fought off the man (an older, much larger family friend) hard enough (I’m not sure what constitutes “hard enough”.) and didn’t seem sorry enough. She was disfellowshipped for a year. I don’t know what, if anything, happened to the rapist. I hate to ask her. You’d surely get more and better information if you spoke directly to a Mormon feminist. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/155 "2018-08-23T12:27:45Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > a Mormon feminist. Now there’s an oxymormon. One way to distinguish a church from a cult is to look at how they deal with things like rape and other sexual crimes amongst their adherents. Though by that distinction, not only is Mormonism a cult but so is Catholicism and a whole lot of others. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/156 "2018-08-23T14:20:44Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Now there’s an oxymormon. > > One way to distinguish a church from a cult is to look at how they deal with things like rape and other sexual crimes amongst their adherents. Though by that distinction, not only is Mormonism a cult but so is Catholicism and a whole lot of others. Here’s my favorite list of ‘cult’ checkboxes: > [@](#): > > ‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. > > ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. > > ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). > > ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry�or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). > > ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar�or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). > > ‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. > > ‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). > > ‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). > > ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. > > ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. > > ‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. > > ‪ The group is preoccupied with making money. > > ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. > > ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. > > ‪ The most loyal members (the �true believers�) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. You can decide whether or not the LDS fall into it or not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/157 "2018-08-23T14:45:09Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Here’s my favorite list of ‘cult’ checkboxes: > > You can decide whether or not the LDS fall into it or not. As I was reading it, I thought your list was talking about the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/158 "2018-08-23T14:50:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As I was reading it, I thought your list was talking about the Democratic Party. Sure you did. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/159 "2018-08-23T15:35:37Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m reluctant to answer because you’ll be getting this second-hand and from a non-Mormon, and I may not do this justice. As I understand it, they believe that too often, women who have been raped are blamed instead of supported, particularly by bishops. Changes in the way the LDS Church and bishops in particular, treat rape victims–no blame, no shame, more support and compassion. One woman who developed PTSD from a rape was told by a bishop she still had nightmares because she hadn’t fully repented for not having fought off the man (an older, much larger family friend) hard enough (I’m not sure what constitutes “hard enough”.) and didn’t seem sorry enough. She was disfellowshipped for a year. I don’t know what, if anything, happened to the rapist. I hate to ask her. > > You’d surely get more and better information if you spoke directly to a Mormon feminist. That is directly from the prophet I grew up with, Spencer W. Kimball who wrote > [@](#): > > Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation when there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. So, yes. The prophet said that it was better to die than submit to rape. I have heard directly from friends who were molested and then treated worse than the offender. One woman was disfellowshiped for a year after reporting that her older stepbrother molested and then raped her. He wasn’t disciplined because he was a “good man” and was going to get married. Go on any of the ex-Mormon sites and you hear many similar tales. It’s not terribly difficult for Utah residents to be well informed. The Salt Lake Tribune regularly runs articles on this, frequently enough that even occasional readers such as me are quite aware of the issue. Enough so that one really wonders how someone could not be aware of the issue. Actually not. There is a strong tendency for willful ignorance. People just don’t want to know. When the unquestioning assumption is that the Church is absolutely correct, then little details don’t matter. For example here’s a [typical article](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/07/27/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual-assault-are-targeted-by-honor-code/): > [@](#): > > Brigham Young University students who are victims of sex crimes say they are investigated by the school and sometimes disciplined after reporting their abuse, a consequence that critics say silences victims and emboldens offenders. > > At colleges nationwide, student victims are encouraged to report sexual assaults to schools’ Title IX officers, charged with enforcing a federal law that guarantees students don’t face hostility on campus based on their gender. > > But multiple students say that at BYU — a private university owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — Title IX staff routinely alert the Honor Code Office. > > Students say Honor Code involvement means a victim who reports an assault faces possible punishment if she or he was breaking curfew, violating the dress code, using drugs or alcohol or engaging in consensual sexual contact — all banned by the code of conduct — before an attack. In BYU approved housing, even off campus, men cannot be in women’s apartments and vice versa. In a well publicised case recently, a woman was raped in her apartment and then prohibited from taking more classes at BYU and the school refused to allow her to transfer her credits to another school. Here’s just one of many accounts. > [@](#): > > Madi Barney sat sobbing in the Provo, Utah, police department. It had been four days since the Brigham Young University sophomore had been raped in her off-campus apartment. > > She was scared – terrified – that the officials at her strict, Mormon university would find out and punish her. > > Nonsense, the officers told her, they’ll never know, and they won’t hurt you. But a month or so later, there she was with her attorney in Brigham Young University’s Title IX office – a place where rape victims are supposed to get help – and offered an ultimatum by a university official. > > Barney was told the school “had received a police report in which ‘A) it looks like you’ve been raped and B) it also looks like you may have violated the honor code’”, she recounted, and that “I was going to be forwarded to the honor code office unless I let them investigate me. I said absolutely not.” > > The university has told Barney that she cannot register for future classes. She is no longer welcome at the institution her father attended before her, along with aunts and uncles and two cousins, a university that devout families consider the Harvard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. > > Attending the graceful campus at the foot of the snow-capped Wasatch Range is an aspiration for many young Mormons, and being thrown out is a black mark that can follow the devout for life, estrange them from their families, derail their education and ultimately their careers. In her case one of the local police, a Mormon, provided the honor code office with the police report. This was all over the news, so one really has to question any claims of not being aware of the issue. In our family, after my sister reported my father to the bishop for repeatedly molesting her and another sibling, my father was mildly disciplined. While my siblings weren’t disciplined (we had a “good bishop” in the Mormon leadership roulette where there are no standards or even much training) there also was absolutely no support for them. Likewise, my older brother received no real punishment for him raping me, our younger brother and several other boys which occurred when he was 17 to 18 and his victims were 10 to 14. He claims that he confessed to the mission president while he was on his mission and that they allowed him to continue without any discipline. This should have been an automatic one-way ticket back home, but rapists aren’t treated that severely by some leaders. Of course Mormonism has a rape culture. When the founder was a sex pervert who strong armed his inner circle to allow him to marry their adolescent daughters, then you are going to set up a culture in which rape is overlooked far too many times. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822/160 "2018-08-23T15:53:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sure you did. Whataboutism is generally an admission of guilt. My guess is that in Hurricane’s mind, the list came uncomfortably close to the truth. In the interests of disclosure, I’ll do it for my particular religious beliefs (United Methodism) > [@](#): > > The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. We don’t have a leader. Though we do have a Council of Bishops although I don’t know any of their names except our local one. True decisions are decided upon by an elected body of lay and clergy. So I’ll say “No.” > [@](#): > > ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Heh, no. We’re a pretty cantankerous bunch. We’ve already had churches withdraw from the UMC because they were talking about changing a book of discipline rule. Our ‘judicial’ system is notoriously toothless. > [@](#): > > ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). I’m not sure what excess is. Some of us meditate and on Sundays we read in unison. I don’t find it excessive, but who knows. > [@](#): > > The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry�or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). Yeah right. I don’t even think they encourage us to do any of those examples. As far as thinking, acting and feeling in general, they certainly do encourage us to live in a certain way. Give to charity, get involved in your community, love your enemies and all of that stuff. > [@](#): > > The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar�or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). Again, heh. We can’t even decide if Muslims are non-Christian or not. It depends on who you ask. I think the current concensus is that we serve the same God, but they view him from a different angle. A good portion of us are universalists anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. > [@](#): > > The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. Maybe? We think that there is evil in the world and we need to do good to bring light to the darkness. It’s almost never directed at a particular group though and is more of a vague feeling that people do bad things. > [@](#): > > The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). No, we have a strict accountability chain and any member can file charges against any other member including bishops, pastors or whomever else you fancy. We’re non-hierarchical. Everyone is elected to their positions either directly or via representatives that are themselves elected. > [@](#): > > The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). I don’t think so anyway. We’re mainlines. Typically we emphasize that the means are the ends. Doing good on this earth is the end in and of itself. > [@](#): > > ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Depends on your church. There are definitely some Sister Better-Than-You’s floating around, but they typically aren’t leaders so much as other people who are just snobs. Oh well, what you gonna do? I can honestly say that I have never had a pastor or other leader shame me for anything I’ve done. Typically, if I confess something wrong, they’ll laugh about it, say, “Oh well, I’ve wanted to do the same thing myself. Whatcha gonna do, we’re just people?” It is probably dependent upon the pastor though. > [@](#): > > Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Ummm… no. If you tried to cut ties with your non-UM family, the pastor would probably tell you that was a bad idea. > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. Depends on what you mean by preoccupied, but there is definitely mention of inviting people to church. ‪ > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with making money. Again, depends upon what you mean by preoccupied, but we do have offering every week and once a year they announce the budget and ask you to make a donation to meet it. > [@](#): > > Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. I wish. Our church of 300 has about 15 people that actually do the work. Most members show up on a Sunday morning about once a month and occasionally chat over snacks. ‪ > [@](#): > > Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. That’s actually DIScouraged. We’re encouraged to be part of our community. > [@](#): > > The most loyal members (the �true believers�) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. I see the other people in my church once a week, sometimes twice if there’s an activity I want to go to. 95% of my life has nothing to do with my church group and for some people it’s closer to 99. We do our own things and meet up once a week. You do make some friends in the church and you’ll see them more often, but usually it’s to have a bbq, not talk about church. So for me. I think that I can come down on mostly not a cult, but there are a few iffy things. I think that most groups whether religious or secular will probably have a few things on the list. Anyway, that’s why I like the list. I think that it shows that groups can have cult-like tendencies. I’m not a Mormon, I couldn’t fill out the list for them, so they probably need to decide for themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-arent-mormons-anymore/819822.md?page=9)