# Mormons: Automatic Heaven before Age 8? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631 "2017-12-16T13:58:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/21 "2017-12-16T21:55:42Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re assuming that there is a hell. Hell is a misunderstanding of the concept of damnation. Damnation is not a physical hell, instead, it’s the eternal absence of the Godhead. No fire, no Sulphur, no beast, no brimstone, just a lonely, dark existence that lasts a very long time. I live without the Godhead _now_. I’m cool with that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/22 "2017-12-16T21:58:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re assuming that there is a hell. Hell is a misunderstanding of the concept of damnation. Damnation is not a physical hell, instead, it’s the eternal absence of the Godhead. No fire, no Sulphur, no beast, no brimstone, just a lonely, dark existence that lasts a very long time. But, nothingness is still infinitely worse (literally) than an eternity of bliss, right? The Lucifer and Christ war put us into a bizarre backwards-Pascal’s wager situation. Strained analogy coming: Pascal said, hey, you should believe in God because if you don’t and you’re wrong, you spend an eternity in hell. Christ said, let’s gamble with their eternal souls so that some will come back smarter, etc., and some will mess up and we’ll lose them forever. Anyway, I agree that the shooter is a monster, but I still don’t see how he’s not doing the kids a favor. They miss out on some growth opportunities, but are guaranteed eternal bliss rather than eternal nothingness. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/23 "2017-12-16T22:06:47Z")
You’re seeing this wrong. EVERYONE is going to heaven. You, me, Joe, even the atheist reading this. We’re going to heaven. Why, because we choose the correct side in heaven. How do I know that? Because you’re reading this. you have a physical body. Our reward for choosing the correct side of the heavenly battle is a body of flesh that can be resurrected to eternal life. There is one way to lose this gift. That is, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That being "having a perfect knowledge (of the Godhead) and thereafter denying it. That basically required telling God to his face you don’t believe in his plan. So, the concept of helping these \<8 yr old kids get to heaven is absurd. They already have that ticket and it’s good for life. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/24 "2017-12-16T22:08:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I live without the Godhead _now_. I’m cool with that. And you won’t be punished. You just won’t get a high paying job in heaven, those are all in the top tiers. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/25 "2017-12-16T22:16:01Z")
I don’t get how the hypothetical school shooter doesn’t also get to heaven, then, especially if he’s a believer and I am not. Is a school shooting inherently a blasphemy against the holy spirit? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/26 "2017-12-16T22:19:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re seeing this wrong. EVERYONE is going to heaven. You, me, Joe, even the atheist reading this. We’re going to heaven. Why, because we choose the correct side in heaven. How do I know that? Because you’re reading this. you have a physical body. Our reward for choosing the correct side of the heavenly battle is a body of flesh that can be resurrected to eternal life. There is one way to lose this gift. That is, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That being "having a perfect knowledge (of the Godhead) and thereafter denying it. That basically required telling God to his face you don’t believe in his plan. > > So, the concept of helping these \<8 yr old kids get to heaven is absurd. They already have that ticket and it’s good for life. I must be missing something here. Are you saying that it’s Mormon belief that everyone goes to heaven unless they denounce God while in his presence? I feel like this is at odds with what **HD** is saying about agency and the risks involved. Also, I don’t understand why some Mormon groups were baptizing non-Mormons in the grave – what would be the point if everyone is already saved. Is this really Mormon dogma? Why do they go door-to-door, then? Why try and convert people? Why abstain from alcohol and caffeine? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/27 "2017-12-16T22:25:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t get how the hypothetical school shooter doesn’t also get to heaven, then, especially if he’s a believer and I am not. Is a school shooting inherently a blasphemy against the holy spirit? [Maybe not.](https://static.deathandtaxesmag.com/uploads/2014/02/jesusassault-640x399.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/28 "2017-12-16T22:31:09Z")
No. The blasphemy I spoke is not a sin against man, but a sin against the divinity of the Godhead. Assume the Pope was sitting in his suite. He sees Jesus sitting on his bed and spends the night talking to Jesus, watching Jesus make wine out of the water, sees him levitate across the room to close the drapes, turns a ceramic dove into a live one, and explain the true meaning of Revelations. That’s getting close to a perfect knowledge of the Godhead. More than faith, more than belief, knowledge that is unquestionable. If the pope chooses to turn his back on the Godhead thereafter, he’s committing the unpardonable sin. Mark wrote …_But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin_. If a mass murder dies, without repenting, he’s basically limited to one of those lower places. Better than damnation, but not first class. After all, he chose the right side eons ago. If a mass murderer repents and is truly sorry for his sins, asks for forgiven, and accepts Christianity, he’s basically forgiven. What level of heaven does he see? I don’t know, he’s without sin so he could go far. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/29 "2017-12-16T22:33:30Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I must be missing something here. Are you saying that it’s Mormon belief that everyone goes to heaven unless they denounce God while in his presence? I feel like this is at odds with what **HD** is saying about agency and the risks involved. Also, I don’t understand why some Mormon groups were baptizing non-Mormons in the grave – what would be the point if everyone is already saved. > > Is this really Mormon dogma? Why do they go door-to-door, then? Why try and convert people? Why abstain from alcohol and caffeine? Mormon doctrine isn’t quite so black and white as Heaven vs Hell. There are “[kingdoms of glory](https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng)”. Morgenstern’s analogy about first class vs business vs coach is pretty apt. The top degree of glory, the “best Heaven” is called the Celestial Kingdom. That’s sort of the “goal” of Mormonism: get to the Celestial Kingdom. From (Mormon scripture) D&C 76 > [@](#): > > 50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— > 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— > 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; > 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. > 54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. > 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— > 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; > 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. > 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God— > 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. > 60 And they shall overcome all things. > 61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. > 62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. > 63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. > 64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection. > 65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. > 66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all. > 67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. > 68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all. > 69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. > 70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical. We want everyone, or at least as many as we can, experience that. To do so, they’ll have to be baptized, accept the Gospel, repent of their sins, etc. The runners-up go to the “Terrestrial Kingdom”: > [@](#): > > 71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. > 72 Behold, these are they who died without law; > 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; > 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. > 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. > 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. > 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. > 78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. > 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. and then the third-place finishers go to the Telestial Kingdom: > [@](#): > > 81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. > 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. > 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. > 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. > 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. > 86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; > 87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. > 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. to end up in Mormon Hell, a.k.a. “Outer Darkness”, is pretty hard, but we want to help our fellow man end up in a better kingdom of glory. that’s why we do all that missionary work. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/30 "2017-12-16T22:45:16Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I must be missing something here. Are you saying that it’s Mormon belief that everyone goes to heaven unless they denounce God while in his presence? Close. I’m saying everyone living has already earned a ticket to heaven. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t different stops along the way. I sincerely doubt too many people will ever have a perfect knowledge while living, so it’s really not an issue. just saying, I went to church for 4 years and will never go back doesn’t trigger it. Saying God doesn’t exist doesn’t trigger it, unless you clearly know, from personal experience, that he does exist. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Is this really Mormon dogma? Why do they go door-to-door, then? Why try and convert people? Why abstain from alcohol and caffeine? They go door to door to spread a message. Overselling it as they do. They feel conversion guaranties you a higher afterlife because it allows you to progress in your knowledge. To grow. No caffeine? I never heard caffeine was forbidden in any way. No alcohol, it ruins too many families for them to accept it. No tobacco, it ruins lives too. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/31 "2017-12-16T23:26:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I live without the Godhead _now_. I’m cool with that. Ekers, that’s enough. You want a thread on your atheism, go make one. Don’t damage someone elses. I hope that’s clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/32 "2017-12-16T23:38:35Z")
Not really, but okay. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/33 "2017-12-16T23:43:39Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > No caffeine? I never heard caffeine was forbidden in any way. Really? It’s a standard item on any list of Mormon mockery, and even though it’s apparently wrong, the ban is “only” on tea and coffee, it’s been “misunderstood” by a lot of fairly high church officials: [Article in the Salt Lake Tribune about BYU starting to sell caffeinated soft drinks in 2013](http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=54797595&itype=CMSID) > [@](#): > > It was dictated in 1833 by Mormon founder Joseph Smith and bars consumption of wine, strong drinks (alcohol), tobacco and “hot drinks,” which have been defined by church authorities as tea and coffee. > > Even so, many outsiders and plenty of insiders get that wrong. > [@](#): > > Several earlier LDS leaders, including apostle Bruce R. McConkie, considered imbibing Coke as a violation of the “spirit” of the Word of Wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/34 "2017-12-16T23:46:55Z")
Sorry about the misunderstanding about caffeine. Is it only coffee and tea that’s not allowed? Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses, **HD** and **Morgenstern**. It still doesn’t answer the fundamental question, though, that if the shooter gets all those kids into the Celestial Heaven, first class, if you will, then he’s doing them a favor. They may be able to stay there, or they may slip down to one of the other forms of heaven if they live past 8. What’s the downside from their perspective? Another 70 or 80 years with a risk of eternity in the cheap seats or a guaranteed eternity in first class right now? Seventy years is nothing, literally, compared to eternity, and even the slightest risk of falling to a lower level of heaven is a giant risk for them. ETA: Just saw **naita** ’s post. What she said about caffeine. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/35 "2017-12-16T23:57:13Z")
And, further good news! You’re not done with the missionaries when you pass away. Yes, they (dead spirits) will visit with your spirit and you’ll be so dead and bored you’ll talk to them. You get another chance to accept the gospel! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/36 "2017-12-17T00:03:33Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Sorry about the misunderstanding about caffeine. Is it only coffee and tea that’s not allowed? > > Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful responses, **HD** and **Morgenstern**. It still doesn’t answer the fundamental question, though, that if the shooter gets all those kids into the Celestial Heaven, first class, That would only happen (highest level) if the child was the child of a couple sealed in the temple. > [@RitterSport](#): > > … They may be able to stay there, or they may slip down to one of the other forms of heaven if they live past 8. What’s the downside from their perspective? Another 70 or 80 years with a risk of eternity in the cheap seats or a guaranteed eternity in first class right now? Seventy years is nothing, literally, compared to eternity, and even the slightest risk of falling to a lower level of heaven is a giant risk for them. > > ETA: Just saw **naita** ’s post. What she said about caffeine. the caffeine thing - From the Churches website. “the church does not prohibit the use of caffeine” Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/37 "2017-12-17T00:11:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > And, further good news! You’re not done with the missionaries when you pass away. Yes, they (dead spirits) will visit with your spirit and you’ll be so dead and bored you’ll talk to them. You get another chance to accept the gospel! Yeah, we’re VERY persisitent. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/38 "2017-12-17T01:27:54Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Sorry about the misunderstanding about caffeine. Is it only coffee and tea that’s not allowed? > > … All hot drinks like warm milk or hot cocoa? Another reason to not believe then. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/39 "2017-12-17T01:40:34Z")
> [@PoppaSan](#): > > All hot drinks like warm milk or hot cocoa? Another reason to not believe then. Mormons drink both. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631/40 "2017-12-17T04:52:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > There is one way to lose this gift. That is, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That being "having a perfect knowledge (of the Godhead) and thereafter denying it. That basically required telling God to his face you don’t believe in his plan. I’m not Mormon, but this is why I don’t spend any time worrying about atheists’ souls, especially those who are good people. If God is real, they’ll see on judgment day and they won’t deny it, and will go to heaven. If he’s not real, what good would worrying do anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-automatic-heaven-before-age-8/804631.md?page=3)