# Mormons baptized Simon Wiesenthal...so what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822 "2012-02-14T17:20:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/41 "2012-02-14T20:06:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, there’s nothing to stop you from thinking it, but if you sneeze, somebody says “God bless you”, and you respond “Fuck that noise - there is no God, and shut up already” there is some ambiguity as to who the douche is. > > There isn’t much analogy to the forced baptisms of Jews during the Middle Ages. That was forcing your beliefs on somebody living. Wiesenthal isn’t living. Therefore, he has no rights that have been violated. Baptism on his behalf does not affect him at all. > > And come on - baptism and pissing on someone’s grave aren’t even remotely similar. > > Regards, > Shodan Baptism and saying “God bless you” are not remotely similar. According to the CJCLDS, Weisenthal is actually a member, and has accepted Jesus as his personal Lord & Taylor, acknowledged the prophecy of Joesph Smith, and is living on planet Jesus or whatever. If Weisenthal had had any desire to do any of these things, he plenty of opportunities to do so. The people doing this are asserting a control over someone else’s soul. You don;t have to believe in a soul to be offended by that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/42 "2012-02-14T20:06:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There isn’t much analogy to the forced baptisms of Jews during the Middle Ages. That was forcing your beliefs on somebody living. Wiesenthal isn’t living. Therefore, he has no rights that have been violated. Baptism on his behalf does not affect him at all. > > And come on - baptism and pissing on someone’s grave aren’t even remotely similar. > > Regards, > Shodan How about if I go to a Baptist cemetery and swap Darwin fishes for all the crosses? No harm, no foul, right? After all, I am firmly convinced that Christianity is a crock, and so making it look like the dead person wasn’t a gullible fool only compliments his memory. BTW, forcible conversions did not just happen in the Middle Ages. In the 19th century a Pope kidnapped a Jewish child and made him a Catholic. In any case you, like the Mormons, obviously feel you know more about what Jews feel than we do. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/43 "2012-02-14T20:07:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Depends upon how warm the water is. Reminds me of a saying to use in case of a false sense of satisfaction: it’s like peeing your pants. The unstated follower: a nice, warm feeling, but it ain’t gonna last. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/44 "2012-02-14T20:07:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nobody claims it affects Mr. Wiesenthal; he’s dead. Yet we generally respect the wishes of people who are dead, notwithstanding that they cannot be affected, mainly because to do otherwise annoys the living - like the dead person’s friends and relations. > > For example, as a society we implement people’s wills, we ask them to fill out organ donation cards, burial arrangements are made in advance, and the like. Why not just grind the dead guy up for pet food? After all, they are dead, and cannot care. > > The reason is that - as a society, religious and athiest alike - we generally find it good manners to respect the wishes of dead people, as a general rule, insofar as they are expressed, and the wishes of the living conserning dead relations. Mormons do claim it affects Mr. Wiesenthal, or they wouldn’t do it. If he specifically expressed an opinion against retroactive baptism, doing so would be disrespectful. I don’t think it’s necessarily disrespectful just because he’s a famous dead Jewish person. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/45 "2012-02-14T20:11:48Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > To be fair, the church has clearly established rules against it. And they are putting in checks to prevent the members from doing it anyway. In the past they neither had rules or any checking at all. > > I would like to see the rules tightened. And the checks are not yet either thorough or sophisticated. But they are improving. The church is making a good faith effort to keep their agreement. The members however can be idiots and aren’t always keeping the church’s agreements. I wasn’t aware of that–I thought the church itself was doing it officially, if it’s just some schmucks, then I retract the stuff about the church lying. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/46 "2012-02-14T20:12:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > But, pissing on something is generally considered a sign disrespect. Baptizing someone is not generally considered a sign of disrespect. Yes, it is. It is considered a sign of disrespect to “baptize” someone without their consent (and presumably against their will). That’s why Jews are upset about it. Why else would they be upset about it, after all, if they didn’t consider it disrespectful? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/47 "2012-02-14T20:13:08Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > Mormons do claim it affects Mr. Wiesenthal, or they wouldn’t do it. If he specifically expressed an opinion against retroactive baptism, doing so would be disrespectful. I don’t think it’s necessarily disrespectful just because he’s a famous dead Jewish person. The “default” position is that a person who has lived their whole life and died in one religious tradition did _not_ want to change religions. Otherwise, somewhat logically, they would have changed religions while they were _alive_, no? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/48 "2012-02-14T20:27:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yes, it is. It is considered a sign of disrespect to “baptize” someone without their consent (and presumably against their will). That’s why Jews are upset about it. Why else would they be upset about it, after all, if they didn’t consider it disrespectful? (Replying to this one, although others made the same point) All I said was that it’s a bad analogy because pissing on someone is, _in general_, considered a sign of disrespect whereas baptizing someone is, _in general_, not considered such. The example of forced conversions of Jews throughout history is a better analogy, IMO, even though in those cases, the Jews were still living. In any case, I think the best analogy is when people from other religions pray for you. Basically, it does no harm, who cares? RS ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/49 "2012-02-14T20:30:15Z")
It’s an inherently illlogical position. It rejects free will - in the case of a baptised adult who has lived a long life yet chosen (or did not, for whatever reason come to believe) the faith in question. If the choice is important, then baptism of this kind (even if, as I believe i’ve heard before, it’s more of an “option” to the baptised spirit rather than enforced) negates that, because it’s outside the period of choice, and so pointless. If the choice _isn’t_ important, then the creation of beings who can, through free will, reject that faith, is a monstrous crime. Not to mention that it makes life pointless beyond that life itself. Which as an atheist I can’t really complain about, but seems somewhat un-Christian. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/50 "2012-02-14T20:47:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > In any case, I think the best analogy is when people from other religions pray for you. Basically, it does no harm, who cares? “Hello Moishe, I hope that you find Jesus.” “Well, thank you, but I’m really not interested and I’m secure in the Jewish faith. Thanks though.” “Oh, don’t worry, I’m still going to pray that you find Jesus.” Still a dickish thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/51 "2012-02-14T20:54:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The example of forced conversions of Jews throughout history is a better analogy, IMO, even though in those cases, the Jews were still living. The ones who gave in. The ones who refused, not so much. > [@](#): > > In any case, I think the best analogy is when people from other religions pray for you. Basically, it does no harm, who cares? > > RS If someone prays for me that are not saying anything about my beliefs or my feelings. That isn’t the case here. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/52 "2012-02-14T21:02:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Hello Moishe, I hope that you find Jesus.” > “Well, thank you, but I’m really not interested and I’m secure in the Jewish faith. Thanks though.” > “Oh, don’t worry, I’m still going to pray that you find Jesus.” > > Still a dickish thing to do. I agree it’s a dickish thing to do, similar to continuing to pray for someone after they’ve asked you not to. I don’t think it’s a cause for outrage, which, according to the OP, is how the Jewish organizations feel. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/53 "2012-02-14T21:05:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If someone prays for me that are not saying anything about my beliefs or my feelings. That isn’t the case here. I don’t think I’m a **Voyager** -level debater, but I’ll try anyway. I don’t think the Mormons are saying anything about Wiesenthal’s beliefs or feelings. But, if you disagree, then I’ll say that someone who prays for you, knowing that you’re of a different (or no) religion, is saying the same thing about your thoughts and feelings that the Mormons are saying about Mr. W. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/54 "2012-02-14T21:08:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yes, it is. It is considered a sign of disrespect to “baptize” someone without their consent (and presumably against their will). That’s why Jews are upset about it. Why else would they be upset about it, after all, if they didn’t consider it disrespectful? Maybe the Mormons involved are offended by all those Jews who keep banging on about how Mormons are NOT god’s chosen people, and never can be? You can see how that would be considered disrespectful? Mormonism is a religion - you should not be surprised when it’s adherents spout a bunch of lunatic nonsense. Apparently it’s a fundamental human right. At least they aren’t waging a holy war, for which I for one respect them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/55 "2012-02-14T21:10:00Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Maybe the Mormons involved are offended by all those Jews who keep banging on about how Mormons are NOT god’s chosen people, and never can be? You can see how that would be considered disrespectful? Perhaps if you had a cite for Jews saying that about Mormons… > [@](#): > > Apparently it’s a fundamental human right. At least they aren’t waging a holy war, for which I for one respect them. And the bar is lowered once again. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/56 "2012-02-14T21:16:19Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Googling, Wiesenthal was apparently a secular Jew, so I don’t think he had any religious beliefs to be respectful of. And Isn’t taking offense to the baptism an expression of belief that Mormonism is the wrong religion? I don’t see how simply saying someones religion is incorrect, is necessarily disrespectful. Weisenthal may have been secular, but like many secular - or atheist - Jews, he still defined himself as a Jew. And baptizing a Jew is a sign of disrespect. Besides, Jews don’t think of other religions as “wrong”; they think of them as “not ours”. Judaism was the religion Weisenthal didn’t practice, not Mormonism. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/57 "2012-02-14T21:26:54Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Maybe the Mormons involved are offended by all those Jews who keep banging on about how Mormons are NOT god’s chosen people, and never can be? You can see how that would be considered disrespectful? Why would anybody find it offensive that Jews say that they’re the Chosen People? It means that they were chosen to bear a burden and that everybody else on the planet can be just as righteous in God’s eyes by doing even less (much less) than Jews are obligated to do. Seems like an odd thing to become upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/58 "2012-02-14T21:27:15Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Maybe the Mormons involved are offended by all those Jews who keep banging on about how Mormons are NOT god’s chosen people, and never can be? You can see how that would be considered disrespectful? I’ll take a wild guess and assume that, like many, you don’t actually know what is meant by “the chosen people” and think it is an expression of inherent superiority on the part of Jews. Would it surprise you to learn that it means no such thing? That, under Jewish theology, a good non-Jew is just as “righteous” under the Noahide laws as the most observant Rabbi? > [@](#): > > Mormonism is a religion - you should not be surprised when it’s adherents spout a bunch of lunatic nonsense. Apparently it’s a fundamental human right. At least they aren’t waging a holy war, for which I for one respect them. I sense an excluded middle here … 😉 Edit: ninja’d by **Finn**. D’oh! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/59 "2012-02-14T21:47:04Z")
This has nothing to do about disrespect for the dead guy. It’s about disrespect for the religion that claims him. or the religion of the family that claims him, depending on who finds out and takes more offense. It’s a claim that the other religion somehow can’t take proper care of the person in the afterlife. I agree that it’s all pretty silly, but then again I’m an atheist and I think everything related to religion is silly. Apparently a lot of people disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/60 "2012-02-14T21:50:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’ll take a wild guess and assume that, like many, you don’t actually know what is meant by “the chosen people” and think it is an expression of inherent superiority on the part of Jews. > > Would it surprise you to learn that it means no such thing? That, under Jewish theology, a good non-Jew is just as “righteous” under the Noahide laws as the most observant Rabbi? Hmmm, so you are arguing that maybe the views of a small but high profile religion might be misunderstood? By golly, you might be on to something! I wonder if there might be any parallels in other small but high profile religions? You know, that’s a lesson I am going to take away from this thread - don’t be offended by wacky but ultimately harmless religious views. Mormons probably think that a good Jew is just as “blessed” as the most observant Mormon, particularly if you’ve done the baptism thing for them.😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822.md?page=4)