# Mormons baptized Simon Wiesenthal...so what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822 "2012-02-14T17:20:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/61 "2012-02-14T21:51:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > … > Besides, Jews don’t think of other religions as “wrong”; they think of them as “not ours”. Judaism was the religion Weisenthal didn’t practice, not Mormonism. I’m pretty sure he didn’t practice Mormonism either. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/62 "2012-02-14T22:20:51Z")
Not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/63 "2012-02-14T22:30:54Z")
He didn’t practice Mormonism differently than he didn’t practice Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/64 "2012-02-14T22:35:35Z")
Judaism was his religion. The fact that he didn’t practice it or believe in it didn’t change the fact that it was his. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/65 "2012-02-14T22:40:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This has nothing to do about disrespect for the dead guy. It’s about disrespect for the religion that claims him. or the religion of the family that claims him, depending on who finds out and takes more offense. It’s a claim that the other religion somehow can’t take proper care of the person in the afterlife. > > I agree that it’s all pretty silly, but then again I’m an atheist and I think everything related to religion is silly. Apparently a lot of people disagree. It has nothing to do with “a claim that the other religion somehow can’t take proper care of the person in the afterlife”. Most Jews who are arguing in this thread as to why it could be found offensive are, to my knowledge, atheists. What it is about, is the historic context. In Judaism, efforts to baptize Jews have a very bad rep. It doesn’t matter whether the Jew in question is observant or not. Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic identity, and efforts to baptize Jews without their knowledge and consent are an affront even to non-religious Jews because it is an attempt to seperate them from their chosen ethnic identity. If you want an analogy, imagine someone painting Martin Luther King, Jr. in “whiteface” postumously as a gesture of respect. Can you understand why that might offend some folks? It may be silly, but it is also unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/66 "2012-02-14T22:41:34Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > He didn’t practice Mormonism differently than he didn’t practice Judaism? Judaism is an ethnic identity as well as a religion. Hence, an atheist Jew is still a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/67 "2012-02-14T22:49:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Judaism was his religion. The fact that he didn’t practice it or believe in it didn’t change the fact that it was his. To me it hardens back to the forced conversions during the Spanish inquisition and during other persecutions. Look at the end of Merchant of Venice and Shylock’s forced conversion. If someone doesn’t have a choice, its insulting. Leave people alone to make their own choices and don’t presume to know what’s better for them, especially when they have no voice to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/68 "2012-02-14T22:55:40Z")
I can think of few ideas more dangerous than that we have a “soul” that must be “saved”, and that the “saving” of this “soul” must be done even if it is against the express wishes of its owner. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/69 "2012-02-14T23:05:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Judaism is an ethnic identity as well as a religion. Hence, an atheist Jew is still a Jew. I assume a Jew who has had someone else receive Mormon baptism on his behalf is equally still a Jew. That’s part of the point. The baptism ceremony had no effect, in his opinion (as well as in mine). It didn’t change his life as forced baptism of the living would do. He was the same before the baptism as after. A difference which makes no difference is no difference. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/70 "2012-02-14T23:16:16Z")
Given the fact that it’s not really a ‘baptism’ so much as a post-terrestrial door to door salesmen visit, I find it difficult to work up strong feelings one way or the other. I am reminded, however, of a wiccan doper’s favored response to being told by a christian that they would pray for her. “How nice of you to consider my spiritual welfare! I’ll perform a spell of clarity for you in yours as well!” If you get worked up, it only inspires people to needle you more. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/71 "2012-02-14T23:17:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume a Jew who has had someone else receive Mormon baptism on his behalf is equally still a Jew. > > That’s part of the point. The baptism ceremony had no effect, in his opinion (as well as in mine). It didn’t change his life as forced baptism of the living would do. He was the same before the baptism as after. > > A difference which makes no difference is no difference. > > Regards, > Shodan Just like painting “whiteface” on an obituary picture of MLK makes “no difference”. MLK is not thereby actually rendered “White”. The point isn’t that it changes anything religiously. Hell, many Jews don’t believe in religion. The point is that making the attempt is arguably irritating and offensive. Surely purely symbolic acts which don’t actually do anything to affect the physical world can still be “offensive”? Or are you taking the position that they cannot? Name-calling, misuse of national or religious symbols, racial remarks, all inherently non-offensive? Seems a tough sell to me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/72 "2012-02-14T23:26:00Z")
Name-calling, misuse of symbols, and racial remarks are intended to be offensive. If you have some mormons on tape, saying’ Hey you know what will piss those hoity-toity jews off? Baptising Wiesenthal! _giggle giggle snort_, then I would agree, yes that’s offensive. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/73 "2012-02-14T23:32:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume a Jew who has had someone else receive Mormon baptism on his behalf is equally still a Jew. > > That’s part of the point. The baptism ceremony had no effect, in his opinion (as well as in mine). It didn’t change his life as forced baptism of the living would do. He was the same before the baptism as after. > > A difference which makes no difference is no difference. > > Regards, > Shodan Yes it makes a difference. The offense is not in the consequence as in the attitude of the person doing the act. It’s offensive because the Mormons believe it has an effect and they have no qualms imposing what they believe to be true on someone else. Is it the most offensive thing ever done? Of course not. But the fact that they don’t care whether or not the person receiving the “gift” would have wanted it is arrogant and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/74 "2012-02-14T23:35:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume a Jew who has had someone else receive Mormon baptism on his behalf is equally still a Jew. > > That’s part of the point. The baptism ceremony had no effect, in his opinion (as well as in mine). It didn’t change his life as forced baptism of the living would do. He was the same before the baptism as after. > > A difference which makes no difference is no difference. > > Regards, > Shodan It makes a difference, not in the eternal disposition of the spirit of the deceased, but in how this practice reflects the attitude of the Mormon church towards Jews in general. Jews are quite rightfully wary of Christian sects who take the attitude that converting a Jew is more important than the individual wishes of the Jew in question. While there is obviously a large difference between forced conversion of a living Jew, and one who is already dead, I am not at all surprised that Jews in general would have no tolerance for the practice, regardless of the vitality of the convert. They have good reasons for wanting to avoid that slippery slope, even if the prospects of the Mormon church sliding any further down it are remote. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/75 "2012-02-14T23:44:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It has nothing to do with “a claim that the other religion somehow can’t take proper care of the person in the afterlife”. Most Jews who are arguing in this thread as to why it could be found offensive are, to my knowledge, atheists. … Doesn’t matter what the Jews say, or people of any other religion, except to the degree that Mormons don’t like bad press. This is what the Mormons are claiming, in effect, by these re-baptisms. Jews and other take offense at it probably because they see it as a sign of disrespect for their own faith – which I think it is. But it’s still all pretty silly. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/76 "2012-02-14T23:46:27Z")
The LDS faith simply doesn’t make sense and is full of shenanigans. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were perverts who deserve to be kicked in the rear and told to move along. There is no other mainstream faith that is so obviously false. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/77 "2012-02-14T23:52:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It makes a difference, not in the eternal disposition of the spirit of the deceased, but in how this practice reflects the attitude of the Mormon church towards Jews in general. As far as I know, it’s never been a specifically jewish targeted phenomenon. It’s just that they’re the ones upset about it. The last time we had this thread, or maybe it was the time before that, it was something about catholic church parish registries being used for baptisms. edit: Robert, Scientology must be pretty close to it. And of course, LDS is pretty new as these things go. If we could have observed the birth of hinduism, however many ages ago, there probably were lots of elders going, “what the hell is this patently false stuff the young uns are into?” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/78 "2012-02-14T23:56:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume a Jew who has had someone else receive Mormon baptism on his behalf is equally still a Jew. > > That’s part of the point. The baptism ceremony had no effect, in his opinion (as well as in mine). It didn’t change his life as forced baptism of the living would do. He was the same before the baptism as after. > > A difference which makes no difference is no difference. > > Regards, > Shodan The difference it makes is on the still living, who get all bent out of shape. Now, you can argue all you like about how rational it is for someone to get all bent out of shape over meaningless gestures, but the world is chock full of such gestures and just as full of people ready and waiting to get bent all out of shape over bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/79 "2012-02-15T00:07:21Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The LDS faith simply doesn’t make sense and is full of shenanigans. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were perverts who deserve to be kicked in the rear and told to move along. There is no other mainstream faith that is so obviously false. All religions don’t make sense and are full of shenanigans. And they’re all obviously false. Some of them are just old enough that the falsehoods are more comfortable. As an atheist, I don’t give a flying fuck if the Mormons baptize me posthumously (or, indeed, prehumously). In fact I’d find it rather humourous, because it’s just such a ridiculous thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822/80 "2012-02-15T00:34:54Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t think I’m a **Voyager** -level debater, but I’ll try anyway. I don’t think the Mormons are saying anything about Wiesenthal’s beliefs or feelings. But, if you disagree, then I’ll say that someone who prays for you, knowing that you’re of a different (or no) religion, is saying the same thing about your thoughts and feelings that the Mormons are saying about Mr. W. I’d not be offended if they prayed for him. That says, we think there is a god of class G, and we’re asking that god to assist you or whatever. Here they are enrolling him in the club. Any Christian can pray for me, but don’t sign me up for church. It is similar though not identical to Christians claiming that various atheists have had deathbed conversions. I glimpsed through the IASFM from just after Isaac Asimov’s death recently, and I recall something about him trying to make it as clear as possible that even at death’s door he still was an atheist. It was a shame he felt he had to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-baptized-simon-wiesenthal-so-what/612822.md?page=5)