# Mormons Vs Main Stream Religions **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 8, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565 "2012-07-08T00:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDurden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@MrDurden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDurden)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/101 "2012-07-12T08:06:30Z")
A simple proof that DNA ancestry has provided modern science has dispelled the notion that the people in the Americas were descended from Israelites. But no one that believes would ever be swayed by modern science. Of course the Book of Mormon changed in 2007 to go along with this evidence. But once again… it just proves it was ‘translated incorrectly’ ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/102 "2012-07-12T08:30:06Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Nope, not gonna bite. This isn’t GD. > > I’ve gotten entangled with atheists in the past, and the ones I’ve encountered seem to think they are more evolved then we poor deluded theists. > > I DO understand how a TBM who comes to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is a fraud and that Joseph Smith was a con man can be left with the belief that there can be no God. I find that incredibly sad, but I’ve been told to save my sympathy. Hey, do whatever you want, but no crocodile tears when you don’t get any sympathy for your position. I had a very enlightening discussion at lunch with a Catholic. I enjoy having discussions with people who look at the same set of facts and come to a different conclusion. But if you are going to mock the Mormons, be aware that they are mocking you back. And where I sit, there is no difference between what you are saying and someone protesting the the Wizard of Oz couldn’t be real because everyone knows that you have to tap your feet together _four_ times, not three. As far as your sympathy for being an atheist, don’t worry. As the famous line goes, the only difference between you and I is that I only believe in one less god than you. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/103 "2012-07-12T11:30:47Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Please tell me this is true. I want to drop it inappropriately into conversations if so. Well, wife, not sex slave. But yes, she was 14 years old, and yes, Joseph pressured her father into it. See: [The Wives of Joseph Smith - Helen Mar Kimball](http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm) Also: [Helen Mar Kimball - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Mar_Kimball) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/104 "2012-07-12T12:55:05Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Well, wife, not sex slave. But yes, she was 14 years old, and yes, Joseph pressured her father into it. > > See: [The Wives of Joseph Smith - Helen Mar Kimball](http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm) The nice thing about the articles linked is that it should dispel any doubts that Mormonism was the equivalent of a cult at the time. > [@](#): > > "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage…After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.‘ This is just pure gold. JS wants an adolescent so badly he creates a new doctrine, that of tying families together in the Celestial kingdom. Apparently, it set off a gold rush of early leaders getting sealed together. Of course, this was quietly discontinued, so that somber sacrament meetings could rule, but still, one wishes that the wild days of the early church could have continued for just a little longer. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/105 "2012-07-12T14:31:59Z")
My guess is that the LDS Church will resemble present-day Methodism…no more bogus “history”, no “golden plates”, etc. It will resemble most mainstream protestant sects. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/106 "2012-07-12T14:47:09Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Well, wife, not sex slave. But yes, she was 14 years old, and yes, Joseph pressured her father into it. > > See: [The Wives of Joseph Smith - Helen Mar Kimball](http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-HelenMarKimball.htm) > > Also: [Helen Mar Kimball - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Mar_Kimball) Great link. I’d forgotten all about [wivesofjosephsmith.org](http://wivesofjosephsmith.org). It doesn’t say much about whether Mormonism today _is_ a cult, but it gives the impression that it _was_ a pretty nasty cult in the 1800s. Wife, sex slave, potato, po-tah-to. “Wife” was the word that Joseph Smith and Helen’s father used. But Joseph already had a wife, whom he lived with and supported financially. Helen continued living with her parents. Not much of a wife. Maybe “mistress” would be a better word, except when I think of that word it doesn’t bring up images of a father trading his daughter’s chastity for his family’s exaltation, or the married client coercing his mistresses with stories of heaven, hell, and destroying angels. I guess “concubine” is a close match - reluctant concubine who doesn’t become part of the houshold. What else do you call a child who gets pimped by her father? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/107 "2012-07-12T14:59:05Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > It doesn’t say much about whether Mormonism today _is_ a cult, but it gives the impression that it _was_ a pretty nasty cult in the 1800s. Well, they’ve certainly gone beyond the celestial marriage, 14-year-old sex slave thing. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/108 "2012-07-13T01:12:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > My guess is that the LDS Church will resemble present-day Methodism..no more bogus “history”, no “golden plates”, etc. > It will resemble most mainstream protestant sects. I read once an article, which I believe was written by one of the apologists, I want to say someone in FAIR, on where the Church would want to circle its wagons. If you think about it, they are already chucking a number of enormous doctrine and traditions out the door. It may not be as obvious to someone who is a member and watching it go slowly, but for someone like me who was completely isolated from the mid 80s until after 2000 when I started reading things on the Net, it was almost like they were two different religions. In the 60s and 70s, we were a \*particular \*people, and proud of it, dammit. The world was wrong, we were right, we would die and go to the great Org Chart in the Sky. The Catholics were evil, the Protestants mislead, and there was only one true Church, so we didn’t want to be mainstream. [del]In the article, now lost forever due to forgetting whatever the hell terms I used to search for, one of the first things to go would be the Book of Abraham.[/del] Hold the presses. I found [the article](http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html). > [@](#): > > While critics of the Church often challenge the authenticity of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, they attach more importance to it than Church members do themselves, a Latter-day Saint Egyptologist said Aug. 6 at the annual conference of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR). For people not familiar with FAIR (now the Neil Maxwell Institute), it’s a Mormon Church funded think tank of apologists, whose primary purpose seems to be to acknowledge some of the gaping holes in the official stories and find the best way to spin it. They are allowed to say things which The Brethren" the top leadership would never be allowed, because the apologists are “speaking for themselves.” The church uses this to get out of things such as the traditional belief that American Indians were descendants of the Lamanites and thus from ancient Israel. Anywhooo. From the article: > [@](#): > > Brother Gee said that in many cases the argument about the Book of Abraham has become so complex that even some of the sharpest critics lose perspective and fail to be consistent in their contentions. > > “We cannot afford to lose sight of the big picture,” he said. > . . . > > “So if what is most important needs to be defended, what are some of the things that need to be defended?” he asked. > > He suggested six: God exists; Jesus Christ is His Son; God talked and still talks with men through the power of the Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world; the Atonement is available to those who trust Jesus, turn from sin, make and keep sacred covenants, and follow the course throughout their lives; and the Book of Mormon is true, an authentic record of God’s interactions with actual ancient people. > > “Now, we may be called upon to defend smaller points than these, but if these six things are not true, there is no point in the rest,” Brother Gee said. > > “Now where is the Book of Abraham in this?” he asked. “It isn’t. The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ.” This is rather brilliant. Naturally, there is the spin that the argument against the Book of Abraham is “so complex” is great. It’s not complex. It’s simple. It’s a fraud, and easily demonstrated. While spinning is cool, what is brilliant is the suggestion to jettison damn near everything which Mormonism used to be. Note the six suggestions. Only one thing has anything to do with it. Gree is specifically talking about something which is clearly an embarrassment for the Church, but note that he’s allowing for even Joseph Smith to get thrown under the bus at some time in the future. Also note the phrasing, that “God talked and still talks with men _through the power of the Holy Ghost_.” There are active Mormons on this board who are acknowledging that Joseph Smith “could have” got one of the core tenets wrong. I don’t think it will take 100 or even 50 years. The availability of information via the internet is forcing a housecleaning, and it’s obvious the direction which has been chosen. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/109 "2012-07-13T01:15:42Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > What else do you call a child who gets pimped by her father? A Mormon? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/110 "2012-07-13T05:16:45Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Hold the presses. I found [the article](http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html). It sounds like he’s saying to downplay and evade. Did that not use to be standard? ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/111 "2012-07-13T17:35:38Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Hey, do whatever you want, but no crocodile tears when you don’t get any sympathy for your position. > > I had a very enlightening discussion at lunch with a Catholic. I enjoy having discussions with people who look at the same set of facts and come to a different conclusion. > > But if you are going to mock the Mormons, be aware that they are mocking you back. My intention is not to MOCK Mormons. The OP asked for the difference between Mormons and “mainstream religions.” To me, mainstream religions would be Catholic and Protestant. Since Mormons claim to be Christian, I was focusing on the non-Christian POV of the LDS Church. I don’t consider atheism a religion. So if your stand is that ANY belief in God is a fantasy, I don’t think you can weigh the difference between Mormonism and mainstream religion. I get peeved when an atheist comes to the party and says, essentially, “Who cares, since all religion is a big fairy tale?” To me, it obliterates the OP’s question. The way I see it, you are using it as an opportunity to mock Christianity. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/112 "2012-07-14T02:35:15Z")
More to the point, we aren’t really answering LouisB’s question. The real question that he wants to know the answer to is given in post #14. He notes that there are a great deal of Christian churches who believe that Mormonism is clearly heretical. And that’s true. It’s not a question of whether Mormonism is really heretical. It’s not a question of whether the concept of heresy makes any sense. It’s not a qustion of whether Christianity makes any sense. It’s not a question of whether any religion whatsoever makes any sense. That’s not the point that he’s making. What’s clearly true is that there are a great deal of Christian churches that believe that Mormonism is heretical. (I’m going to use the term “heretical” because it’s closer to what’s being asked here than describing Mormonism as a cult. It’s not about how the Mormon church controls its members socially. It’s about their theology.) Given that belief by many churches that Mormonism is heretical, what LouisB wants to know is what those churches will say about Romney and Mormonism in discussing the election. My suspicion is that they will do their best to completely ignore the fact that he is a Mormon. These churches in effect have an unspoken agreement with other groups in the Republican Party. They agree to not publicly talk about how heretical they believe Mormonism to be. The business/military/libertarian wings of the party agree to pretend to be good Christians. The Mormons agree to not discuss how much their theology differs from mainstream Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565/113 "2012-07-15T12:06:41Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > My intention is not to MOCK Mormons. Then you’re not doing a very good job of hiding it. Let’s look at your first quote in this thread: > [@](#): > > He didn’t mention a detour. Did He LIE? MOCK, belittle, whatever; it apparently requires CAPITALIZATION to convey how silly the Mormons are for believing their beliefs. If capitalization fails to get the point across, there are also **bold** and red. Sort of like shouting at foreigners is they don’t understand English. Numerous posters have asked for clarification, but it doesn’t look like you’ve got anything besides tribalism. They’re wrong because you’re right. > [@](#): > > So if your stand is that ANY belief in God is a fantasy, I don’t think you can weigh the difference between Mormonism and mainstream religion. Along with many of the posters in this thread, I’m an ex-Mormon. We can comment as we wish. > [@](#): > > I get peeved when an atheist comes to the party and says, essentially, “Who cares, since all religion is a big fairy tale?” To me, it obliterates the OP’s question. ::Shrug:: You fail to see or are ignoring the point I’ve made. YOU came in with ALL CAPITALIZATIONS and you oh-so-funny, mocking sister. Let’s all laugh at the Mormons because they don’t believe in your interpretation of what is passed off as the the word of God. Apparently, the irony hasn’t hit you. > [@](#): > > The way I see it, you are using it as an opportunity to mock Christianity. No, just you. And anyone else who cherry-picks ambiguous sentences written a thousands of years ago, and arbitrarily assigns a meaning of the moment to mock others. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Given that belief by many churches that Mormonism is heretical, what LouisB wants to know is what those churches will say about Romney and Mormonism in discussing the election. My suspicion is that they will do their best to completely ignore the fact that he is a Mormon. These churches in effect have an unspoken agreement with other groups in the Republican Party. They agree to not publicly talk about how heretical they believe Mormonism to be. The business/military/libertarian wings of the party agree to pretend to be good Christians. The Mormons agree to not discuss how much their theology differs from mainstream Christianity. I think so. Once Rick lost, there weren’t any alternatives, anyone is better than Obama for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mormons-vs-main-stream-religions/627565.md?page=5)