# Moron kills woman. Mother thinks sentence too harsh **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455 "2006-01-24T22:01:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/41 "2006-01-25T04:08:32Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Fair enough. I’ve no idea what they cover during EMT training. I would think that teaching them how to use a defibrillator would be pretty damned obvious. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/42 "2006-01-25T04:15:15Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Yes, he’s getting off insanely light. How much will a 2-5 year timeout effect his life in the long run? He’ll get out, get another job, probably have a family, and spend the rest of his life telling everyone how awful he feels. Meanwhile, that poor woman is gone, her kids will be traumatized permanently, and her family destroyed. Would the world be a better place if he spent 15 years in prison? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/43 "2006-01-25T04:32:16Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Um, no, it’s not like saying that at all. Not even roughly. Um, yeah, it is roughly similar, despite the patronzing little “um” at the start of your post. It’s similar to the extent that in both cases the suggestion is being made that the punishment should be lessened based on how likely it is they would do it again. I’d be willing to bet that this idiot would refrain from killing anyone with a defibrillator again even if he never saw the inside of a prison cell. Yet, he’s going to prison anyway! Go figure! ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/44 "2006-01-25T04:44:15Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Um, yeah, it is roughly similar, despite the patronzing little “um” at the start of your post. It’s similar to the extent that in both cases the suggestion is being made that the punishment should be lessened based on how likely it is they would do it again. Wrong. The suggestion is being made that the punishment should be lessoned based on how likely it is that they would _do something similar_ again. Only an idiot would think that he was referring to the specifics of the act. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/45 "2006-01-25T05:10:24Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > I always figured they’d just shock you something awful. . By saying ‘shock you something awful’, you obviously grasp the fact the device could cause injury or, at the very least, serious pain. Is there really _anyone_ who hasn’t seen one of these things used? If not on a news report, then on a TV show or movie? Seen the way a near lifeless body jumps when it’s shocked? Seen the way those who use it take great care to ensure no one else is touching the body they are shocking? He may not have intended to kill her. But he HAD to realize that there was a potential for injury, and he _damn well knew it was gonna hurt like hell_. 10 years doesn’t really seem out of line at all. Especially when we realize that he’ll only do 4 or 5 before they kick him loose. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/46 "2006-01-25T05:24:57Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > The suggestion is being made that the punishment should be lessoned based on how likely it is that they would do something similar again. Only an idiot would think that he was referring to the specifics of the act. Oh for fuck’s sake, could you split that hair any finer? It’s pretty likely that the fuckstick won’t ever do anything **similar** again even if he doesn’t go to prison, is that better? I’m pretty confident that whether given 2 years or ten, the fuckstick won’t be shocking people or jabbing them with discarded needles or wrapping their heads in gauze until they suffocate or go in for any other merry pranksterism with medical supplies. This should have an effect on his punishment for willfully endangering someone’s life after being told that what he was doing was dangerous, and in fact ending it…how exactly? And, if one wants to get specific, one could take a look back at what inspired my comments and one would find that **Palooka** did not limit his assertion to “do[ing] something similar again.” He also said “serious threat to people.” If you’re going to hang your pointy hat on that, at least hang it on the actual hook. Or you could give up this mania you have for grasping at the most fragmentary of straws and, should you happen to catch one, pretending like it’s somehow meaningful. But I won’t hold my breath on that one. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/47 "2006-01-25T05:48:38Z")
It’s amazing that around here no matter how egregious the act, _somebody_ invariably will argue for the opposition. I’m all for blowing off steam and depending on your workplace, some types of horseplay may be acceptable. That said, when I went through paramedical training, it was stressed that the Lifepak was not something to screw around with. a) You can be injured or killed from improper use, and b) if you fuck it up playing around, the tool isn’t available when needed to cardiovert the patient. Too bad, Mom, your son’s a fuckwit, and he should go to jail for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/48 "2006-01-25T06:34:42Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > :eek: > > What I don’t understand is: this guy is trained as an EMT, not trained on the defibrillator, told not to touch the defibrillator, touches the defibrillator anyways and kills someone. How is that _in_voluntary manslaughter? It’s invoulentary manslaughter because the intent to kill is not provable. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/49 "2006-01-25T06:36:11Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Your comments (at least as framed by your first sentence) certainly did seem like a strawman. The hypothetical question posed in the first line of your post (“Does that mean its OK to kill people … ?”) implies that **Palooka** was saying that the idiot’s actions were OK–that is, that he approved of his actions. It’s obvious that he does NOT approve of the idiots actions (note that he did advocate some judicial punishment for him). > > Therefore, the argument you were rebutting–that it’s OK to kill people if everyone thinks it was only meant in fun–is not the argument that **Palooka** was making, and is in fact a MUCH easier argument to attack. > > His argument was that the man should be sentenced more leniently because he didn’t mean to kill her. > > Do you disagree with _that_? Yep, I do disagree with that. I also disagree that a suspended sentence with no time served (which is what **Palooka** originally proposed) is functionally any different than saying what moron did was okay. The sentence should fit the crime, and a ‘no time served’ sentence implies the crime was trivial, which this was not. Such being the case, I stand by my earlier statement. Sarcastic as it is, it’s not a straw man. > [@RickJay](#): > > Would the world be a better place if he spent 15 years in prison? Yes, it would. It would mean we live in a world where this sort of behavior is unacceptable. Point of fact, I never said 15 years. If I were able to dicatate his sentence, it would be 10 years without early parole. As it stands, my guess is that he will do 30 months. > [@danceswithcats](#): > > It’s amazing that around here no matter how egregious the act, somebody invariably will argue for the opposition. No kidding. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/50 "2006-01-25T10:02:46Z")
See, people say “clear” for a reason when they use those things, because even touching the patient while they are being shocked could kill you. Presumably he had been in a situation where he had seen the defibrillator being used and had been asked to stand back while it was done- and if he didn’t know why he could have asked. Someone should have worked out he was too stupid to be an EMT well before he got to ride around in an ambulance. 10 years sounds about right, not because he meant to kill her, but because there was clearly a possibility that serious injury or death would result and _he did it anyway_. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/51 "2006-01-25T10:22:40Z")
What boggles my mind is this quote by his mother: > [@](#): > > He just made a mistake. Everybody plays on the job, even cops. But with this one, it caught up. He’s going to pay for it for the rest of his life. Has it honestly escaped her notice that Ms. Rhoton and her kids, for that matter, paid for her son’s mistake with the rest of her life, not for it? Because her son decided to have a little fun by hurting another humam being, two little kids have lost their mother and a woman who seemed to be trying hard to provide for them lost her life. There’s something else I noticed while I was hunting up the quotes. He didn’t do this while they were fooling around in a firehouse or some such; he did it while they were riding in a ambulance. Here’s a quote from the relevant portion of the article: > [@](#): > > Rhoton was in the front passenger seat of the ambulance, and driver Michael Coleman was heading south on U.S. 19 in Lebanon when Coleman heard Rhoton tell Martin not to touch her “with that,” Bush said. Coleman looked back to see Martin putting the paddles away. > > But shortly afterward, Bush said, Coleman heard the “sound of a shock” and heard Rhoton yell: “Oh my God, Mike, he shocked me!” Seconds later she stiffened and then went limp. Coleman frantically tried to hold her slumping body up while driving and calling the private ambulance company’s office. She couldn’t get away from him, and he took advantage of that. I’m sure the driver could have done without the distraction as well. Sorry, lady. Your son decided to have fun by hurting someone and, as a result, killed her. She’s paid a much higher price than he did. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/52 "2006-01-25T10:29:00Z")
There’s a reason why they yell ‘clear!’\* before they use these devices, right; nobody, especially if they have medical training, could be ignorant of the risks. \*Even if this is ever only uttered on TV shows, it is still firmly embedded in the minds of most of the public (and it should be so in ALL trained medics) that this is a potentially dangerous device, capable of delivering a powerful electric shock. He has no excuse. “He’s a good kid!” My fucking arse. He’s an irresponsible moron. ---
**Author:** ![katie1341](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/91b2a8/32.png) [@katie1341](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katie1341)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/53 "2006-01-25T11:04:57Z")
In Georgia (and probably most other states), there is something called the Felony Murder Rule, which means that if someone dies as a result of a felony that you’re commiting, you can be charged with murder even if you didn’t intent to kill them. The causation can actually be fairly remote- I ran across one case a couple of years ago where a man stabbed his wife. The wound was decidedly non-fatal, and she was in the hospital for a couple of days. While she was there, she was given a medication that caused a fatal stomach bleed. Husband was convicted of felony murder, and the appeals court affirmed it. ``` In this case, it seems like he could have been prosecuted for felony murder, the felony being aggravated assault (committing an act which is likely to or does cause serious bodily injury or death), even if he didn't mean to kill her. So, yeah, I'd say he got a pretty good deal. And I've dealt with those "my son isn't like all of those other criminals" mamas a lot. They're frequently most of the problem, because her baby has never had to be accountable for anything. ``` **Obligatory discalimer- this post is not intended, and should not be relied upon as legal advice.** ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/54 "2006-01-25T11:41:57Z")
Send the fucker to the chair. That’d be irony too rich too spread on toast. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/55 "2006-01-25T14:41:32Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > Send the fucker to the chair. That’d be irony too rich too spread on toast. I’m all for killing stupid people. It should reset the world population level to somewhere around 750CE levels. More room, less consumption of resources. When do we start? ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/56 "2006-01-25T14:46:15Z")
**Mangetout** that’s exactly why they say clear. It’s taught in ACLS and it’s certainly expected in the street. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/57 "2006-01-25T16:17:38Z")
> [@katie1341](#): > > In Georgia (and probably most other states), there is something called the Felony Murder Rule, which means that if someone dies as a result of a felony that you’re commiting, you can be charged with murder even if you didn’t intent to kill them. **katie1341** , my understanding is that this is actually something that’s part of US common law, if not actually _de jure_ legal code for each state. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/58 "2006-01-25T16:40:20Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > :eek: > > What I don’t understand is: this guy is trained as an EMT, not trained on the defibrillator, told not to touch the defibrillator, touches the defibrillator anyways and kills someone. How is that _in_voluntary manslaughter? “Involuntary” in this case doesn’t have the same meaning as the non-legal term. “Involuntary” means “unintended.” It can also be called “unintentional manslaughter” or “negligent manslaughter.” (Negligence = breach of a duty of care) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/59 "2006-01-25T16:50:38Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > By saying ‘shock you something awful’, you obviously grasp the fact the device could cause injury or, at the very least, serious pain. > Is there really _anyone_ who hasn’t seen one of these things used? If not on a news report, then on a TV show or movie? Seen the way a near lifeless body jumps when it’s shocked? Seen the way those who use it take great care to ensure no one else is touching the body they are shocking? Absolutely. On any medical show, they always yell, “CLEAR!” before anyone shocks the person, meaning, get the fuck away I’m gonna be shocking someone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/60 "2006-01-25T16:56:25Z")
> [@Palooka](#): > > Ten years is way too long in such a situation, says I. I mean, buddy isn’t some dangerous criminal. He’s just some guy who messed with something he shouldn’t have. Frankly, I didn’t know that those paddles were fatal. I always figured they’d just shock you something awful. Buddy probably figured the same thing, especially given his neophyte status. He (and you) also apparent believe that it’s okay to “shock someone awful” so long as it isn’t potentially fatal. That’s bullcrap. Even if it was absolutely impossible to kill someone with the machine, he should still have been fired and charged with battery. Hurting people is not an acceptable form of fun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=4)