# Moron kills woman. Mother thinks sentence too harsh **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455 "2006-01-24T22:01:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/61 "2006-01-25T17:35:42Z")
I call dibs on the defendant’s use of the “Firefly Defense.” ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/62 "2006-01-25T17:50:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Absolutely. On any medical show, they always yell, “CLEAR!” before anyone shocks the person, meaning, get the fuck away I’m gonna be shocking someone. Part of the problem is that on medical shows (_ER_, specifically) they sometimes show someone getting shocked by accident, with somewhat humorous results. It’s just not like that IRL. I took EMT training last summer and was trained to use an AED (the somewhat idiot-proof one), and yes, you have to say “Clear!” but we were also trained to LOOK around and make sure everyone was clear. The person assisting you (doing CPR or handling the oxygen) might have a knee against them, or a loved one might be trying to hold their hand. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/63 "2006-01-25T18:06:32Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > It’s amazing that around here no matter how egregious the act, _somebody_ invariably will argue for the opposition. Who is arguing in favour of killing people with defillibrators? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/64 "2006-01-25T18:16:03Z")
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge the mother (nor the aunt). There are more generous interpretations of what she said that are perfectly reasonable. Note that she never said that her son should go free, nor that he wasn’t responsible. Let’s suppose that my friend John, for instance, picked up a gun and fired it at someone. As a joke, of course. It wouldn’t be unreasonable for me to say something like “Wow. John is smarter than that. That’s not the kind of thing he would ever do. It’s inconceivable to me that he would be capable of doing something so idiotic. And now his idiocy is going to get him thrown in prison. And he’s going to have to live with it for the rest of his life.” Perfectly reasonable. And I never once said that he shouldn’t go to prison for his Very Dumb act. Just that I’d be astonished that he did it. Because, you know, it’s so unlike him. But with just a slight rewording, my remarks could be interpreted far differently. I’m having a harder time trying to charitably parse the “But cops do it too” thing, however. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/65 "2006-01-25T19:54:30Z")
Yeah, I can’t get too worked up about how light the sentence was. It was nothing more than a poorly thought out prank. It’s not even in the same ballpark as actual attempted murder. I mean, sure the family of the victim would rather have experienced “attempted murder” than “involuntary manslaughter” but we don’t make laws based on the feelings of the families of victims. It wasn’t even negligent homicide, like a guy who thinks, “well, I know that not checking the Foo Straps could mean Jimmy falls to his death but I wanna get lunch.” It was more like sticking a tack in a kids chair in junior high, and the kid died from shock. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/66 "2006-01-25T19:58:22Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > It wasn’t even negligent homicide, like a guy who thinks, “well, I know that not checking the Foo Straps could mean Jimmy falls to his death but I wanna get lunch.” > > It was more like sticking a tack in a kids chair in junior high, and the kid died from shock. Nonsense. It was just like electrocuting someone and being surprised that the kid died from electrocution. It was definitely negligent and I would say showed a reckless disregard for the victim’s well-being. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/67 "2006-01-25T20:09:24Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Nonsense. It was just like electrocuting someone and being surprised that the kid died from electrocution. It was definitely negligent and I would say showed a reckless disregard for the victim’s well-being. I think you mean, “it’s like shocking someone and being surprised when the kid was electrocuted.” Anyway, if that’s what you meant, that is what it’s like. I suspect this guy thought it wouldn’t be anything more than a joy buzzer. Would you lock up a guy who stood inside a doorway and scared (BOO!) his office mate so bad that he died of a heart attack? Would you lock up the millions of people who did that before him who didn’t kill someone but who had the exact same intent? A prank gone horribly horribly wrong. Nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/68 "2006-01-25T20:14:17Z")
I’m sorry, but shocking someone is not a prank that should be excused by the criminal law. If your pranking tendencies go in the direction of physically assaulting a person, then you should be prepared to bear the full weight of the law should that person suffer serious consequences. If someone hit you on the head with a two-by-four, and you died from head injuries, should that be excused as a prank? If someone playfully put you in a headlock and you suffocated, should that be excused as a prank? If someone playfully held your arm behind your back and dislocated your shoulder, should that be excused as a prank? You prank, you pay. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/69 "2006-01-25T20:16:48Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I suspect this guy thought it wouldn’t be anything more than a joy buzzer. But he was an EMT, and ought to have known that it would. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/70 "2006-01-25T20:21:29Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > A prank gone horribly horribly wrong. Nothing more. It is a prank gone wrong. But, that hardly excuses what he did. A little background. My SO was an EMT for seven years. These people prank and fool around a lot. They do pranks that I didn’t think were funny at all, like trashing an entire ambulance with industrial strength glue or foam. They routinely do very serious pranks to their coworkers that interfere with their ability to do their jobs. Unfortunately, it’s just the nature of the industry. I have no doubt that this idiot was simply responding to a prank that somebody had played on him earlier, or that he was simply joining along with the culture of pranks that exist on most EMT bases. Now, don’t get me wrong: None of this excuses his actions one bit. One hundred wrongs don’t make a right. He knew or should have known that hitting her with the defibrilator would harm them and possibly even kill her. A ten year sentance sounds just about right, especially if he can get out in five years. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/71 "2006-01-25T20:22:36Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > But he was an EMT, and ought to have known that it would. I don’t care what he “ought” to have known. He didn’t know it was going to kill her. And if he DID know, then you need to PROVE that in a court of law, before you lock him up for something more serious. > [@acsenary](#): > > You prank, you pay. You’ve never pranked anyone in your life in anyway where under some crazy set of circumstances that person could have died? Even if you haven’t do you think we should lock up people who have even though they didn’t mean to kill anyone? Intent makes a HUGE difference here, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/72 "2006-01-25T20:26:11Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I don’t care what he “ought” to have known. You don’t care that an EMT, a person whose job is to keep people alive, did not have a basic understanding of what a Defib. machine does? If my life is going to be in someone’s hands, i’d very much think it would be the case that they are aware of what all their equipment does. > [@](#): > > Intent makes a HUGE difference here, folks. It does. As does his inability to know the basic knowledge of his job. That job being to keep people alive. Which he failed at. With a perfectly healthy person. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/73 "2006-01-25T20:29:29Z")
> [@katie1341](#): > > In Georgia (and probably most other states), there is something called the Felony Murder Rule, which means that if someone dies as a result of a felony that you’re commiting, you can be charged with murder even if you didn’t intent to kill them. The causation can actually be fairly remote- I ran across one case a couple of years ago where a man stabbed his wife. The wound was decidedly non-fatal, and she was in the hospital for a couple of days. While she was there, she was given a medication that caused a fatal stomach bleed. Husband was convicted of felony murder, and the appeals court affirmed it. I know next to nothing about Georgian law, but this would not fit under the felony murder rule as I understand it. Felony murder means that when someone is killed in the course of a _separate_ violent felony, the person committing the felony may be guilty of murder, or first-degree murder (depends on jurisdiction). Often, the felonies which qualify for the rule are defined by statute in your particular jurisdiction - common ones are armed robbery, rape, kidnapping etc. For example, if you rob a bank and accidentally shoot someone, or run them over in your getaway car, you may be guilty of felony murder. In some US jurisdictions, the death can be even more remote from your actions. The rule cannot logically be applied to the situation you describe (aggravated assault leads to death a few days later), otherwise every assault which ended in the death of the assaulted person would be classified as murder, or first-degree murder. Following your formulation, there could never be any crimes of manslaughter or second-degree murder, as a death arising from one of these felonies would be automatically be classified as murder or first-degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/74 "2006-01-25T20:37:10Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > You’ve never pranked anyone in your life in anyway where under some crazy set of circumstances that person could have died? Not that I recall. And I definitely have never played a “prank” that consisted of causing someone a lot of physical pain. > [@](#): > > Even if you haven’t do you think we should lock up people who have even though they didn’t mean to kill anyone? > > Intent makes a HUGE difference here, folks. Only sometimes. Here, the guy showed something like a reckless disregard for the woman’s well-being. Even if he didn’t actually _intend_ to kill her, he intended to hurt her a lot. To me, that’s enough to qualify as intent. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/75 "2006-01-25T20:45:05Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > You’ve never pranked anyone in your life in anyway where under some crazy set of circumstances that person could have died? What you are missing is that this wasn’t a “crazy set of circumstances”. It was an entirely reasonable and forseable result of his action that she would die or at least be seriously injured. Let’s say I prank you by jumping out and saying BOO! and you die from a heart attack. That is a “crazy”, unlikely result of my prank. I don’t think any reasonable person would argue that I am guilty of manslaughter. However, if I shoot you with a gun, run you over with my car, or hit you with a defibrillator and it results in your death, then you are guilty. It’s entirely predicable that such actions are likely to cause death or great harm. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/76 "2006-01-25T20:53:23Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I don’t care what he “ought” to have known. > > He didn’t know it was going to kill her. > > And if he DID know, then you need to PROVE that in a court of law, before you lock him up for something more serious. An EMT, as a condition of employment, should recognize several facts: [ul] [li]Electricity kills[/li][li]The body normally has a resistance measured in thousands of ohms, but can get down to as low as 300 ohms in ideal conditions.[/li][li]The simplest way for electricity to kill someone is to have 0.1 ampere of current go across the SA, or pacemaker, node of the heart, destabilizing it, and preventing the heart from maintaining it’s proper beat.[/li][li]Ohm’s Law: An Amp times an Ohm is a Volt, means that given the two previous facts listed, a voltage as low as 30 volts can be fatal, in the right circumstances.[/li][li]The voltage potential used in any kind of defib device is measured in **thousands** of volts. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I believe that 10,000 volts is normal. Perhaps **St. Urho** , or others who are or have been EMTS will comment.[/li][/ul] Given all this information - I think you have more of an obligation to prove to me why it’s _reasonable_ to decide that an EMT shouldn’t know what he was doing was potentially life-threatening. I think, you’re mistaken in your defense of this person, **Trunk**. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/77 "2006-01-25T20:53:35Z")
Seems to me this is like driving drunk. If you drive drunk you certainly don’t intend to kill anyone. You aren’t “that drunk” and you’ll be careful behind the wheel. You’ve been drunker and did just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/78 "2006-01-25T20:54:03Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The rule cannot logically be applied to the situation you describe (aggravated assault leads to death a few days later), otherwise every assault which ended in the death of the assaulted person would be classified as murder, or first-degree murder. It’s my understanding that this is exactly how it works. I hit you with a bat. You are in a coma. I’m going to get charged with some kind of assault & battery charge, possibly attempted murder. However, if you die a month later in the hospital, I can now be charged with murder for your death. Lawyers, am I wrong on this? It’s the way I’ve understood it to work, and it makes perfect sense to me. > [@](#): > > Following your formulation, there could never be any crimes of manslaughter or second-degree murder, as a death arising from one of these felonies would be automatically be classified as murder or first-degree murder. The difference in manslaughter and second degree murder from first degree murder isn’t one of result, its of intent. If I negligently kill you by accident its manslaughter. If I kill you for money then it’s first degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/79 "2006-01-25T21:13:41Z")
I think he was lucky to only be convicted of involuntary manslaughter, and in the interest of justice, he should do the maximum time. This guy intentionally assaulted that woman with a device that anyone with half a brain, and certainly anyone who has trained as an EMT, knows that it can cause death. The whole point of a defibrillator is to interrupt the heart’s rhythm in the hope that a normal rhythm will resume. It’s like hitting a reset button on the heart. A defibrillator is only used in a situation where a person is certain to die otherwise. I’m not medically trained, and I know this. A trained EMT would have to know this. It was no more an innocent prank than those incidents where idiots threw heavy objects off overpasses onto motorists below, killing people in the process. It’s no more an innocent prank than if the EMT had thrown a hammer at his coworker’s head. That’s funny, too, isn’t it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/80 "2006-01-25T21:14:24Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Would you lock up a guy who stood inside a doorway and scared (BOO!) his office mate so bad that he died of a heart attack? Unless there’s a reasonable expectation that such a thing would happen, no. If, on the other hand, you are well aware that this guy has a weak heart, and you do it anyway, then that puts things in a different light. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=5)