# Moron kills woman. Mother thinks sentence too harsh **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455 "2006-01-24T22:01:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/81 "2006-01-25T21:23:00Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I don’t care what he “ought” to have known. > > He didn’t know it was going to kill her. > > And if he DID know, then you need to PROVE that in a court of law, before you lock him up for something more serious. > You’ve never pranked anyone in your life in anyway where under some crazy set of circumstances that person could have died? > > Even if you haven’t do you think we should lock up people who have even though they didn’t mean to kill anyone? > > Intent makes a HUGE difference here, folks. If I pulled a gun on you and shot you, and then said “I thought it was unloaded. It was just a prank!”, Would you feel the same way? Why are you whining? Just have a good laugh about it. You may die but it’s okay, because I didn’t intend to hurt you. Find me a jury that will actually buy that excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/82 "2006-01-25T22:27:27Z")
Another update on this subject: According to my SO, newer defib devices actually will not work at all unless they first can detect no heartbeat currently in the patient. That sounds like a good idea. I can see an overly enthusiastic EMT using a device on a patient who is down but not out, so to speak. **Debaser** , out! ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/83 "2006-01-25T22:55:20Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Intent makes a HUGE difference here, folks. So if Joe shoots and kills Fred, Joe should only be punished for what he \*intended \* to do, which was injure Fred? Sorry, it doesn’t wash. When you assault someone with deadly consequences, you pay for it. The idea that “I was just pranking, therefore I should get off” is something a lot of abusive people use. It is unacceptable and the consequences should be the same regardless of intent. [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/NEWS04/601250318](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/NEWS04/601250318) > [@](#): > > According to police, during gym class, Hood and Hewitt were in the pool, which is more than 11 feet deep. Hood pulled Hewitt to the bottom. When Hewitt tried to swim to the surface, Hood dragged her back underwater. Hewitt eventually broke free and was coughing up water afterward, police said. > > Smith said the attack was premeditated. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/84 "2006-01-25T22:56:26Z")
**Re: Degrees of Manslaughter** Although individual states las may vary, common definitions of the types of manslaughter are the following: _Voluntary Manslaughter_: (This is the more serious crime) Either (1) with the intent to cause serious physical harm, a person kills another person, or (2) with the intent to kill someone, a persons kills another person, but does so acting under an extreme emotional disturbance sufficient to reduce the crime from murder. An example of the first might be someone who intended only to beat someone up, but he died. An example of the second might be someone who found his wife in bed with another man and enraged killed him. _Involuntary Manslaughter_: A person recklessly kills another person. It seems to me that a trained EMT shocking a healthy person with a defibrilator would be exactly the type of recklessness that fits this definition. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/85 "2006-01-25T23:12:11Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > He didn’t know it was going to kill her. > > And if he DID know, then you need to PROVE that in a court of law, before you lock him up for something more serious. Eggshell Skull Doctrine ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/86 "2006-01-25T23:26:38Z")
I really can’t fathom how “EMT shocking someone” = “reckless or accidental.” Add on the fact that _he had to be told to stop fucking with the defibrillator **and then shocked someone anyway** _, and I can’t see any way to honestly claim he didn’t know what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/87 "2006-01-25T23:52:50Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > [li]The voltage potential used in any kind of defib device is measured in **thousands** of volts. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I believe that 10,000 volts is normal. Perhaps **St. Urho** , or others who are or have been EMTS will comment.[/li][/list] I’m not sure what the voltage works out to. The standard sequence of shocks is 200J, 300J, and 360J. Manual defibrillators, like the one idiot boy used can typically be set anywhere between 2J and 360J. I also agree that the EMT in questions absolutely should have known that a defib could kill someone. They teach AEDs in CPR classes now, and it’s taught to those people. I can say with 100% certainty that this would have been covered in his EMT class- it’s part of the national standard curriculum. To whoever asked, this will absolutely bar him from future EMT certification/employment. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/88 "2006-01-25T23:58:38Z")
> [@St. Urho](#): > > To whoever asked, this will absolutely bar him from future EMT certification/employment. Good. For the rest of his life, I hope. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/89 "2006-01-26T00:08:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s my understanding that this is exactly how it works. I hit you with a bat. You are in a coma. I’m going to get charged with some kind of assault & battery charge, possibly attempted murder. However, if you die a month later in the hospital, I can now be charged with murder for your death. That’s not “felony murder”. At least google it, for crying out loud. “Felony murder” in the US is where someone dies (perhaps as a result of your actions, depending on the jurisdiction) during a different felony. What you describe could be any old murder or manslaughter - you can always be charged later if the victim dies as a result of your actions. This is a commonly accepted principle - indeed, was accomodated in one of the requirements in Blackstone’s famous definition of murder (that the death must occur within a “year and a day” of the original act). > [@](#): > > The difference in manslaughter and second degree murder from first degree murder isn’t one of result, its of intent. If I negligently kill you by accident its manslaughter. If I kill you for money then it’s first degree murder. Intent is important? No shit, Sherlock! What’s the relevance of this, though? Also, there are quite a few crimes relating to the death of another person. Your formulation of “negligently kill[ing]…by accident” is not necessarily manslaughter. Many jurisdictions have offences called things like “negligent homicide”. There are also degrees of manslaughter in many US jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/90 "2006-01-26T00:10:18Z")
I’m just wondering about a thought process that goes “huh, this woman is driving a large, very heavy vehicle in which I am riding in the back. I think I’ll sneak up and give her a helluva shock!” Sounds like a runner-up candidate for a Darwin Award. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/91 "2006-01-26T00:11:47Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > That’s not “felony murder”. To clarify, that is not necessarily felony murder. It could be that the other circumstances of the killing lead to felony murder. I hesitate to post so much on a topic without the experience of the US lawyer dopers, so I’ll bow out for now. ---
**Author:** ![katie1341](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/91b2a8/32.png) [@katie1341](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katie1341)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/92 "2006-01-26T00:14:48Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I know next to nothing about Georgian law, but this would not fit under the felony murder rule as I understand it. Felony murder means that when someone is killed in the course of a _separate_ violent felony, the person committing the felony may be guilty of murder, or first-degree murder (depends on jurisdiction). Often, the felonies which qualify for the rule are defined by statute in your particular jurisdiction - common ones are armed robbery, rape, kidnapping etc. For example, if you rob a bank and accidentally shoot someone, or run them over in your getaway car, you may be guilty of felony murder. In some US jurisdictions, the death can be even more remote from your actions. > > The rule cannot logically be applied to the situation you describe (aggravated assault leads to death a few days later), otherwise every assault which ended in the death of the assaulted person would be classified as murder, or first-degree murder. Following your formulation, there could never be any crimes of manslaughter or second-degree murder, as a death arising from one of these felonies would be automatically be classified as murder or first-degree murder. ``` Actually, a separate felony is NOT required in Georgia. I've gotten used to us being weirdos when it comes to law. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/93 "2006-01-26T00:15:41Z")
> [@katie1341](#): > > ``` > In this case, it seems like he could have been prosecuted for felony murder, the felony being aggravated assault (committing an act which is likely to or does cause serious bodily injury or death) > > ``` To split legal hairs, wouldn’t it be aggravated battery? After all, he couldn’t have assaulted her if she was turned away and didn’t know he still had the paddles until after she was shocked. The first attempt, where she warned him to stay away, could count as an assault. Though it’s debatable as to whether that action flows into the second, lethal, one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/94 "2006-01-26T00:17:23Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Ten years is the max sentence. Typically, one day of good behavior gets you one day taken off your sentence. If this guy gets the max sentence, he’ll be out in five years. More likely the judge will give him five years and he’ll be out in two and a half. Can a judge sentence him so that he doesn’t get time off for “good behavior”? This idiot deserves the full 10 years in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/95 "2006-01-26T00:27:04Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > Can a judge sentence him so that he doesn’t get time off for “good behavior”? > > This idiot deserves the full 10 years in prison. IANAL, but it’s my understanding that it depends on the laws of the State. Typically, no. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/96 "2006-01-26T00:41:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Another update on this subject: According to my SO, newer defib devices actually will not work at all unless they first can detect no heartbeat currently in the patient. That sounds like a good idea. I can see an overly enthusiastic EMT using a device on a patient who is down but not out, so to speak. > > **Debaser** , out! Those newer devices are called AEDs, and they do the job automatically, once applied. They’re meant for the lay public, who may or may not have had some training in how to use them. They can certainly save lives, but they are not as flexible as standard defibrillators. With a standard defibrillator, I can (and have) applied synchronized shocks to folks in Ventricular tachychardia with a pulse, and applied stacked unsynchronized shocks of increasing intensity to folks with recalcitrant ventricular fibrillation. Paramedics, nurses, and physicians are trained in how to use that sort of equipment. We don’t want to be hamstrung by a programmed machine which can only respond in a limited number of ways. Speaking as a health professional and someone who’s familiar with the criminal justice system, the guy was an idiot, and once he was told by his senior colleague to not fool with the defibrillator, but did so anyway, he became a criminal idiot. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/97 "2006-01-26T03:54:32Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > I’m just wondering about a thought process that goes “huh, this woman is driving a large, very heavy vehicle in which I am riding in the back. I think I’ll sneak up and give her a helluva shock!” Sounds like a runner-up candidate for a Darwin Award. She wasn’t driving, she was a front seat passenger. (I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had been the driver he’d shocked though.) The facts remain, that he was trained as an EMT, and had some inkling about how potentially dangerous the machines were, and he was also told not to touch her with the defibulator, yet he not only touched her again, he shocked her with it. That is malignent stupidity IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/98 "2006-01-26T04:20:13Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > The moron should’ve used [one of these](http://www.kitchencollection.com/Temp_Products.cfm?sku=01092294&catname=Gadgets%20And%20More&CatType=Y) if he wanted to shock someone. They sting but won’t kill anyone. Or [the Terminator II.](http://www.toolsforhealing.com/products/Zapper/Products/TerminatorII.html) Wonderful for killing all those nasty internal parasites you’re afflicted with. As the ad says, there’s no physics like metaphysics! ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/99 "2006-01-26T04:42:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Or [the Terminator II.](http://www.toolsforhealing.com/products/Zapper/Products/TerminatorII.html) Wonderful for killing all those nasty internal parasites you’re afflicted with. > > As the ad says, there’s no physics like metaphysics! I’m afraid to ask you why on earth you know of that device, yet morbidly curious too. How did you find _THAT_?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455/100 "2006-01-26T04:59:17Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > I’m afraid to ask you why on earth you know of that device, yet morbidly curious too. How did you find _THAT_?! :eek: The zapper and proponents of zapping are a staple of the medical quackery circuit (sorry). If you want to kill the parasites that cause all cancers and lots of other diseases, ya gots to zap. [A peek into the world of zapping.](http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=292) [More on the Queen of Zapping.](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moron-kills-woman-mother-thinks-sentence-too-harsh/341455.md?page=6)