# Morons and god: dissecting 20 "arguments" for god and any argument for any specific god **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915 "2011-05-23T17:06:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/21 "2011-05-23T18:35:49Z")
It’d be nice if it turned out this “classy” “lady” is actually a sock that got banned. Nobody is that stupid. (like what happened recently with that other pitting [I forget who it was]) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/22 "2011-05-23T18:47:44Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Your problem stems from the fact that you believe there are an infinite amount of possible religions. There aren’t. Given an infinite amount of time, there are an infinite amount of religions. Given a finite amount of time, there are only a finite amount of religions. Now, I’m not going to sit here and try to calculate how many religions could be thought up in a specific period of time, but the point of Pascal’s Wager is that you’re better off believing just any one of those than you are nothing, as one divided by a ridiculously large number is still greater than zero. Err… maybe I misspoke. Even given a finite number of religions, there are an infinite number of possible gods. What’s funny about _this_ is that probability states that we will almost certainly never find the _right_ religion. And again, it’s not just 1/x, where X is huge, it’s 1/x, where x is infinite. And that’s of course ignoring gods that would reward skepticism. > [@](#): > > I never knew that tithing was a requirement of Christianity to get into Heaven. It most surely isn’t a requirement in every religion. No, but it’s a requirement built in to the faith. If you’re a christian, you’re expected to tithe. Maybe you don’t have to to get in to heaven, but it goes beyond that. Far beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/23 "2011-05-23T18:49:56Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > If the Christian heaven is full of Christian believers, I don’t want to go there. I certainly don’t want to hang around and sing the praises of a petty, egomaniac, passive-aggressive diety who makes impossible rules and then has a hissy fit when people fail to follow those rules. > > Now, I do quite like some Christians. But I fail to see the appeal in watching sinners burn in hell, which is apparently the other main source of amusement. Though I am a Christian, I, [like Mark Twain](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm#2), have never seen the appeal in much of the popular stereotypical imaginations of Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/24 "2011-05-23T19:16:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No… I mean, I just proved one of the main tenants of the wager wrong … Who does he pay his rent to? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/25 "2011-05-23T19:21:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > So classylady posted this in the thread with the obscenely stupid title (The day Kirk Cameron out-sciences Stephen Hawking is the day that Rick Santorum stops being a bigoted douchefag) Did you not get that the title was sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/26 "2011-05-23T19:27:13Z")
Hey, the guy’s just pitched up out of nowhere to school us all out of our ignorance - give him one break at least. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/27 "2011-05-23T20:58:31Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No… I mean, I just proved one of the main **tenants** of the wager wrong… Just like in the last thread, where someone did a minor hijack over a pet peeve of incorrect usage (copywrite vs. copyright), I’m going to throw one into this thread: It’s **tenets** , damn it, not **tenants**! A tenet is a doctrine or basic statement of some system. A tenant is the occupant of an apartment or other leasehold. Carry on… [/peeved hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/28 "2011-05-23T22:32:10Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Your problem stems from the fact that you believe there are an infinite amount of possible religions. There aren’t. Given an infinite amount of time, there are an infinite amount of religions. Given a finite amount of time, there are only a finite amount of religions. Now, I’m not going to sit here and try to calculate how many religions could be thought up in a specific period of time, but the point of Pascal’s Wager is that you’re better off believing just any one of those than you are nothing, as one divided by a ridiculously large number is still greater than zero. But the hypothetical Real God ™ could hand out no particular penalty for not believing in anything, and eternal sploogeboarding for worshipping the wrong guy. Or maybe the Real God ™ is an angry engineer who gets pissed that you don’t use all the features of the marvellous logic engine it gave you and instead chose to run the first 3rd party hackjob, spaghetti-mythed fableware you came across. In both cases the wager strictly \*increases \*your chances of getting a bum deal. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/29 "2011-05-23T23:59:59Z")
+1 to the OP’s response to Pascal’s Wager. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > There is no such thing as an eternal truth. At some point that statement will have to be false … ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/30 "2011-05-24T00:13:50Z")
The best thing about the OP was the cold clear vulcan-like emotionless remorseless logic. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/31 "2011-05-24T02:22:17Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There is no such thing as an eternal truth. > > At some point that statement will have to be false … Point, **BlackKnight**. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/32 "2011-05-24T02:59:35Z")
From the other thread: > [@Kirk Cameron schools Stephen Hawking in science](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirk-cameron-schools-stephen-hawking-in-science/582818/194): > > If there is a hell you’ve got a seat reserved there too:D > You don’t seriously fucking believe that I mean I want him or you to suffer eternal damnation. You take things waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too literally. Go take your meds now. > Some people can’t take a fucking joke. > Wow. You’re dumb. > if you think I’m actually going to post in your retarted dumbass thread then you’re even crazier than I thought. I guess she’s not up for defending her link, that’s such a shame given above example of her debate skillz. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/33 "2011-05-24T04:00:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **11. The Argument from Truth** > P1: Our limited minds can discover eternal truths about being. (NO WE CAN’T) > > Come on, you’re not even _trying_! “Eternal truths”? Are you _shitting_ me? There is no such thing as an eternal truth. What is an eternal truth? Tautology? Even _that_ is subjective. Dumbass needs to read some Nietsche. I have read Nietzsche, _with a hammer_. How can you claim that our limited minds can’t discover eternal truths when you state there is no such thing as an eternal truth? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/34 "2011-05-24T04:09:07Z")
You meant to say doucheBag, right? And not doucheFAG, surely. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/35 "2011-05-24T08:43:19Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You’re still better off believing something than believing nothing, as by believing nothing you’re almost assured of going to Hell whereas by believing something, you’ve got at least a chance of going to Heaven. Almost assured of going to hell? You aren’t getting it at all. You (like Pascal, I suspect) are so steeped in Xtian ideas that you don’t appear able to even begin to perceive the array of possibilities. You don’t appear to have broken out of the stupid, parochial, egocentric, ethnocentric, foundationless false dichotomy which Pascal falls into; a dichotomy that assumes the possibilities are basically limited to there being no god or there being a god that has some resemblence to the god imagined by the religion with which you (and Pascal) happen to be familiar. There is no knowledge of what happens to you after you die so - assuming there is an afterlife at all - there is an essentially infinite array of things that could happen to you. The chance that you go to a place conforming to the Xtian idea of “Hell” is near infinitely low. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/36 "2011-05-24T10:08:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience** I’d like to believe that even Kreeft knows this isn’t a real argument and was just being cute, but given the piss-poor arguments in the rest of the list it’s hard to tell. I mean, I really like the music of Bach too and can understand why some people think of it as an expression of the Divine but in logic terms this is plain woo-woo. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/37 "2011-05-24T14:05:10Z")
Why is there no edit button? I’d really like to be able to update the OP. My reasoning against argument 11 is apparently flawed, but I can’t edit and revise it. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/38 "2011-05-24T14:15:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Why is there no edit button? I’d really like to be able to update the OP. My reasoning against argument 11 is apparently flawed, but I can’t edit and revise it. You can edit your posts for 5 or 10 minutes. It may be inconvenient to lack the ability to change anything you’ve written forever, but it does encourage a bit of thought before posting. Try it! ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/39 "2011-05-24T14:40:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You’re still better off believing something than believing nothing, as by believing nothing you’re almost assured of going to Hell whereas by believing something, you’ve got at least a chance of going to Heaven. > > And your criticism of Pascal’s Wager fails, anyway. If you were going to criticize it, you should have asked what about a God who sends you to Heaven for not believing anything and to Hell for believing something (though such the existence of a deity would be highly unlikely as his actions would negate his existence, but that’s neither here nor there, really). I’ll bite. To steal from Dawkins, Pascal’s wager is a fallacy because any truly omnipotent god would be well aware of the fact that I factored in Pascal’s wager when choosing my faith. He would know that I have no true belief in him, his son or his holy poltergeist and that I’m merely choosing to believe in order to get out of eternal damnation. This omnipotent god would thus see my faith as disingenuous, and condemn me to hell whatever the case. So I may as well enjoy the booze, hookers and blackjack while I can. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915/40 "2011-05-24T17:06:37Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > From the other thread: > I guess she’s not up for defending her link, that’s such a shame given above example of her debate skillz. It’s the old “What? It was… a joke! Ya, that’s it, I was just joking around!” ploy. Works every time. I think I’ll call her a frazzled old douchebag, and then when she’s offended, say, "You don’t seriously fucking believe that I mean you are a literal bag that contains a liquid to go up a vagina. You take things waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too literally. Go take your meds now. Some people can’t take a fucking joke. " [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morons-and-god-dissecting-20-arguments-for-god-and-any-argument-for-any-specific-god/582915.md?page=3)