# Mortgage bailout.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505 "2008-09-21T01:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/41 "2008-09-22T00:01:59Z")
An amazing number of Americans don’t truly understand compounded interest. This is the sustaining principle of any number of examples of Darth Kapital: credit card vampirism, payday loan stores that sprout like fiscal toadstools in the neighborhoods that can least afford…etc. _ad nausea spiritu_. I don’t think this makes them proper prey for those who do. As an orthodox Cecilian, I am commited to fighting ignorance, I cannot condone exploiting it. Obvious exception: if the mortgage arrangement was entered into as a speculation, with no actual intent to occupy but simply to resell for value, yes, in that case, tough noogies, somedays you bite the bear, but today the bear bites you. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/42 "2008-09-22T00:03:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is nonsense. The people who took on more house/mortgage than they could handle absolutely should not be saved from their own stupidity. They should be hurt. They should lose their homes. Their homes should go down to a more realistic value so responsible people can buy them. Saving them from their own stupidity punishes the prudent and rewards the dumb or assholish. This is not a message we should send as we try to move forward. This is nonsense. MANY of the people who took on these mortgages were wheeled and dealed into thinking that they _could_ afford the houses by scheming, shrewd used-car-salesmen mortgage brokers who didn’t give a crap if they were deceiving people in the process, because all they gave a damn about was the huge commission check they’d be getting from the lender for writing such an atrocious loan in the first place. Interest Only and Variable Interest Rate loans paid a whole hell of a lot more in commissions than Conventional loans. But what did these fuckers care? They knew the bottom would fall out eventually, but they weren’t holding the mortgages, having taken their giant piece of the pie to the tune of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars playing this game. And many of these same people could perfectly have afforded their homes had they been allowed to refinance when they saw their variable rates going up and up and up. But by that time the value of their home had fallen below the amount of the note, so no one would write them a better loan that they actually _could_ afford. We were lucky – we were able to refi before the bubble burst and before our variable rate 2nd was out of control, into a conventional Jumbo loan. And don’t you dare insinuate that we couldn’t afford our house, seeing as how we have tens of thousands of dollars in cash in the bank and pay extra principal on our loan every single month. It’s not about being able to afford it, it’s about being lucky that _we_ weren’t among the millions who got screwed. You people need to stop blaming the victims in all of this. And MOST of the people hit hardest were not intentionally gaming the system, but were genuinely misled by these greedy jackasses trying to make a buck off their backs. [http://www.erate.com/yield\_spread\_premium.htm](http://www.erate.com/yield_spread_premium.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/43 "2008-09-22T00:06:49Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > So you’d rather reward the lenders who made loans to people who were, by definition, _bad credit risks_? (That’s what “sub-prime” means.) > > What do you mean by “liar loans”? Sounds like a mere cheap shot. > > Anyway, here’s an interesting paragraph from today’s local paper, for whatever it’s worth: “The mortgages were called subprime because lenders were not requiring the usual evidence of employment, income, assets and credit history required for conventional mortgages.” Seems to me any lender who did this was begging to be suckerpunched. I don’t want to reward anyone for making a mistake. The banking industry can recover without them eventually and the former homeowners now renters will also recover without them. Companies rolled in the dough while giving loans to people who couldn’t afford it, and the people rolled in the dough even though they knew they couldn’t afford the loans. Proposing a bailout to either the companies or the people is asinine. I am a believer in laying the blame first on anyone who equates renting with something less than the American dream. It is that stupid “American Dream! buy a home” that helped get us here. Many people can live the American Dream with a nice rental. Then start blaming everyone else, anyone that has a R or D next to them in any federal office deserves to have a 70% tax rate on current pay and those that retired pensions. Until they learn how to manage our money. Eventually you will hear a giant pop it will be either everyone collectively withdrawing head from ass at once or the complete and total bottoming out of the entire nation. I really hope it is the pop of heads outta asses myself. But it looks like it won’t be. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/44 "2008-09-22T00:08:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This is like arguing micro economics when someone else is arguing macro economics. The problem is not someone who gamed the system. It is more than 5 million homes to be in foreclosure. That will destroy us. It has to be dealt with as it is, a huge problem of millions of homes. 60,000 a month. > And you envision someone who bought a house they could not quite afford. Someone who was offered a deal that an expert said was a great deal and affordable. Who told them do not worry as your house appreciates you will build an equity you can tap if things go wrong. I ran into many loan companies that called me, emailed me and sent letter after letter. They were all mortgage experts . I was just a lowly home owner. How many wanted me to get into a mortgage with low payments in the beginning and could go up some amorphous amount in the future. But do not worry, it will work out. I did not do it. Those who did are not thieves. They are people who are going to lose their homes. Then destroy us please, what part of cannot prop up a bubble is hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/45 "2008-09-22T00:14:20Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > Then destroy us please, what part of cannot prop up a bubble is hard to understand? The part that makes sense is missing. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/46 "2008-09-22T00:20:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The part that makes sense is missing. Take a look at this chart, pay attention to the HUGE increases in home prices. Now it is popping and it needs to pop. Wanting to prop up the bubble will not stop it from bottoming out, only delay it. > **[File:USA home appreciation 1998 2006.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_home_appreciation_1998_2006.svg)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. > The following other wikis use this file: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/47 "2008-09-22T00:41:04Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > … Proposing a bailout to either the companies or the people is asinine… If there is no good solution? Then, if we are to be asinine, might I suggest that foolishly helping people is better than foolishly helping corporations. Actually, might I insist? Thank you, I will. This is a disaster, but one can salvage benefit from disaster, or lose it. The value of houses is going down, this is inevitable. The upside would be that these revalued houses will become more accessible to the moderate income American. A nationwide garage sale, involving actual garages. Perhaps we can anticipate and approximate that decline in value and repackage existing mortgages commensurate with a houses reassessed value? A family being forced out of a house “over-valued” at $500,000 may be able to keep it if it is “realisticly valued” at $250,000. The mortgage holding entity keeps the mortgage at its new value. So long as the mortgagee can make payments that reflect that new value, they are at no risk. The mortgage holder takes a chilling bath, but gets a solid investment rather than a hopeful intangible. And if they cannot survive, then someone else will buy that realistic mortgage because it ensures a modest but reliable profit. Otherwise, I fear that many of these houses will remain houses and never become homes. Now _that’s_ asinine! We’ve already squandored the resources, we may as well get some good out of it. And The Leader has already said that home ownership is the tits! ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/48 "2008-09-22T00:50:43Z")
I know \*\*elucidator \*\* that if one must, well they should pick the one that helps the people. My helping the people would be a freeze on any interest rate increases for the mortgage. That’s all I am willing to give. I think the glut of empty houses will do good, when the prices drop they will get bought. And they will be more affordable er more realistic maybe is a better wishful thinking. And with that more rentals would be available lowering not only the cost of buying a home but also renting a home. ``` I am against all forms of the bailout, not because I don't want to help but because I do not feel the policy will help. No matter where they throw the money, it will just delay the fall out. Didn't they just try throwing money at a problem? Yeah something like a 150 billion worth of throwing money at a problem. Did it work? Are Americans better off now then they where before that stimulus package? ``` Find the problem, fix the problem so it doesn’t just come back again and again. Do I have a solution, nope not even close (Though I did like my sell off Hawaii 😉 ) but I don’t feel this current idea will be the solution. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/49 "2008-09-22T01:04:21Z")
Salvage, not solution. We are not so much preventing a disaster as staunching the wounds from a disaster that already happened. Hell, it happened years ago, we got creamed because we were standing on the railroad tracks and got hit by a train going 2 miles an hour! How many years have I been reading about this? Three, maybe four? But nothing was done because too many people were making money. Nothing was done because household equity was being siphoned off to pay credit card bills, siphoned off to buy loud, shiny crap to keep a consumerist economy humming even while the stewards of that economy played drunken sailor. Who in the world doesn’t understand that starting a ruinously expensive military adventure while simultaneously cutting taxes is dumber than a barrel of hair!? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/50 "2008-09-22T02:16:15Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > I am against all forms of the bailout, not because I don’t want to help but because I do not feel the policy will help. No matter where they throw the money, it will just delay the fall out. This makes me curious about something: a lot of folks are saying that the actions of the past week were necessary because to do nothing would lead to a complete collapse of the national (and perhaps international) economic system. Do you believe this collapse is inevitable, then? Or do you simply disagree that it’ll be the result (as many do)? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/51 "2008-09-22T03:15:48Z")
When you get up tomorrow the international reaction will be known. It may be a hard sell. They have a lot of money in these mortgages and they will not escape like the American thieves will. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/52 "2008-09-22T03:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Here’s what worries me most at the moment:\* > [@](#): > > …Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency… No. No way, no day, no how. Not just “No”, “Fuck, no!” [/QUOTE] **Hyperelastic** started a thread about this point: [Constitutionality of the Great Bailout](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=484324). I took a stab at answering his question, but would be interested if those more knowledgeable in the area would take a boo at the thread. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/53 "2008-09-22T03:34:29Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > This makes me curious about something: a lot of folks are saying that the actions of the past week were necessary because to do nothing would lead to a complete collapse of the national (and perhaps international) economic system. > > Do you believe this collapse is inevitable, then? Or do you simply disagree that it’ll be the result (as many do)? I think the collapse is inevitable. How soft the landing is will decide how easily we get back from it. [http://homeguide123.com/articles/What\_Median\_Home\_Prices\_Would\_Look\_Like\_If\_the\_Bubble\_Never\_Happened.html](http://homeguide123.com/articles/What_Median_Home_Prices_Would_Look_Like_If_the_Bubble_Never_Happened.html) > [@](#): > > Median Home Prices by Region > > Region Current Median Price\* What the Median Price Ought to Be % Difference > Northeast $258,600 $145,760 44% > Midwest $159,800 $133,941 16% > South $173,400 $122,875 29% > West $309,800 $146,297 53% That’s a lot of dropping needing to be done. That’s a lot of loans people will find it more attractive to default on than pay. That’s a lot of money the government will have to absorb. And this is before we start the second phase of operation live within our means, the credit card debt collapse is just around the corner. We can print all the money we can get ink for but eventually other nations are not going to buy our notes. I guess to me in summary is we need to prepare for the landing, trying to “save” it will not work. So better to use that trillion dollars to prepare. Start the Third New Deal right now, why wait until the collapse. I honestly believe they know it is just cosmetic but they’re afraid if they say something else it will be political suicide. Just want to add, I am not talking about end of the world, apocalyptic chaos I am talking a few years of harder times. I just think delaying it very well could make it worse. Because as of yet no one has stood up and said “STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DO NOT HAVE” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/54 "2008-09-22T04:05:13Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > I think the collapse is inevitable. How soft the landing is will decide how easily we get back from it. Uh, how do you “get back” from the complete destruction of the basic tenets of an economic system? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/55 "2008-09-22T05:01:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This is like arguing micro economics when someone else is arguing macro economics. The problem is not someone who gamed the system. It is more than 5 million homes to be in foreclosure. That will destroy us. It has to be dealt with as it is, a huge problem of millions of homes. 60,000 a month. > And you envision someone who bought a house they could not quite afford. Someone who was offered a deal that an expert said was a great deal and affordable. Who told them do not worry as your house appreciates you will build an equity you can tap if things go wrong. I ran into many loan companies that called me, emailed me and sent letter after letter. They were all mortgage experts . I was just a lowly home owner. How many wanted me to get into a mortgage with low payments in the beginning and could go up some amorphous amount in the future. But do not worry, it will work out. I did not do it. Those who did are not thieves. They are people who are going to lose their homes. I did not say they were thieves. They were imprudent, some of them greedy. They made unwise decisions. And those decisions have ramifications. They should lose their homes. The prices should be allowed to drop closer to real value where others will pick them up. And as I said, if people were shown to do something illegal, they should be prosecuted. And the way you keep using the phrase “mortgage experts” is hilarious. You do so in order to equate them with doctors or lawyers so you can absolve them of responsibility. Their salesmen. You turned them down. I turned them down. Millions of people turned them down. Like in other aspects of life it doesn’t pay to be dumb or imprudent. Actions have consequences. Sometimes they’re bad. When they are, let others see what happens and learn from it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/56 "2008-09-22T05:13:03Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > This is nonsense. MANY of the people who took on these mortgages were wheeled and dealed into thinking that they _could_ afford the houses by scheming, shrewd used-car-salesmen mortgage brokers who didn’t give a crap if they were deceiving people in the process, because all they gave a damn about was the huge commission check they’d be getting from the lender for writing such an atrocious loan in the first place. I agree. Some of these people may have gone over the line and broken the law. If they did, let’s lock them up. I’m all for it. But most did not. Most of the borrowers were simply imprudent. They salivated at 0%-down loans at low rates and just assumed that the tide would continue to rise and all would be well. Not everyone assumed this. **Gonzomax** , for one. Me for another. Rule #1 to do well in life: don’t be dumb. Don’t take risks you can’t afford. Break rule #1 and you may find yourself in a bad situation. So be it. > [@Shayna](#): > > Interest Only and Variable Interest Rate loans paid a whole hell of a lot more in commissions than Conventional loans. But what did these fuckers care? They knew the bottom would fall out eventually, but they weren’t holding the mortgages, having taken their giant piece of the pie to the tune of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars playing this game. Yep, some of these people are scumbags. Some used car salesmen are scumbags. Who woulda thought? > [@Shayna](#): > > And many of these same people could perfectly have afforded their homes had they been allowed to refinance when they saw their variable rates going up and up and up. But by that time the value of their home had fallen below the amount of the note, so no one would write them a better loan that they actually _could_ afford. We were lucky – we were able to refi before the bubble burst and before our variable rate 2nd was out of control, into a conventional Jumbo loan. And don’t you dare insinuate that we couldn’t afford our house, seeing as how we have tens of thousands of dollars in cash in the bank and pay extra principal on our loan every single month. It’s not about being able to afford it, it’s about being lucky that _we_ weren’t among the millions who got screwed. I’m with you with one exception. Luck had nothing to do with it. You were smart enough to small a future problem and concerned enough to fix it pronto. Your weren’t lucky, you were responsible. Good for you. > [@Shayna](#): > > You people need to stop blaming the victims in all of this. And MOST of the people hit hardest were not intentionally gaming the system, but were genuinely misled by these greedy jackasses trying to make a buck off their backs. Big deal. There are scammers all around us. It’s up to each of us to sign on the dotted line or not. No one holds a gun to your heads. We make choices. Choices have consequences. Bad choices often have bad consequences. Such is the real world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/57 "2008-09-22T05:34:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …The prices should be allowed to drop closer to real value where others will pick them up… If the real value falls within the affordable range of the current owners, why not let them keep it? What value is created by exchanging one set of occupants for another? > [@](#): > > …Like in other aspects of life it doesn’t pay to be dumb or imprudent. Actions have consequences. Sometimes they’re bad. When they are, let others see what happens and learn from it. And it shouldn’t pay to take advantage of dumb or imprudent people, any more than it is right to take advantage of blind people. It is a subtext of our capitalist ethic, that while it may not be very nice to steal from a blind man, if you can outsmart somebody, they are your ordained prey, why, it wouldn’t be _natural_ for you not to stick it to them! And while the screwed are absorbing these realistic imperatives, has it occured to you to notice what the _other_ set of players has learned, that you can screw your fellow man, get away with it and do rather nicely at that. The _other_ lesson, the one that seems to have escaped your notice. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/58 "2008-09-22T05:47:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If the real value falls within the affordable range of the current owners, why not let them keep it? What value is created by exchanging one set of occupants for another? If they keep up payments, fine. If they default, they should not be given a pass or rewarded. Let them move out and let someone else who has been more prudent move in. Contracts matter to our society. And whatever we do now will be a lesson to people in the future. > [@elucidator](#): > > And it shouldn’t pay to take advantage of dumb or imprudent people, any more than it is right to take advantage of blind people. It is a subtext of our capitalist ethic, that while it may not be very nice to steal from a blind man, if you can outsmart somebody, they are your ordained prey, why, it wouldn’t be _natural_ for you not to stick it to them! Please. You say one “shouldn’t pay” and the other “wouldn’t be right”. I agree they’re both morally wrong, but there is immoral behavior all the time. But you’re trying to create the impression that EVERYONE who lost their home is a victim of some dastardly lender. That’s bullshit and you know it. As I said, I’d love to prosecute those lenders who broke the law. And I think we should. Other than that caveat emptor to all the either greedy, dumb, or imprudent borrowers. > [@elucidator](#): > > And while the screwed are absorbing these realistic imperatives, has it occured to you to notice what the _other_ set of players has learned, that you can screw your fellow man, get away with it and do rather nicely at that. The _other_ lesson, the one that seems to have escaped your notice. You must have missed the other two times I said let’s lock up anyone who broke the law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/59 "2008-09-22T14:23:31Z")
Why, bless your heart, of course no laws were broken! How do youi break the law of the jungle? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505/60 "2008-09-22T14:45:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > … And whatever we do now will be a lesson to people in the future… And a stern lesson it will be, too! [http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/last-years-big.html](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/last-years-big.html) > [@](#): > > …In 2007, Wall Street’s five biggest firms-- Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, and Morgan Stanley - paid a record $39 billion in bonuses to themselves. > > That’s $10 billion more than the $29 billion loan taxpayers are making to J.P. Morgan to save Bear Stearns. > > Those 2007 bonuses were paid even though the shareholders in those firms last year collectively lost about $74 billion in stock declines --their worst year since 2002… Sorry, rude to interrupt. You were saying? Something about personal responsibility? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mortgage-bailout/464505.md?page=4)