# Morwen's stories and story ideas thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 26, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200 "2013-12-26T06:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/1 "2013-12-26T06:15:52Z")
This is the thread in which I post ideas and concepts for stories I’m working on (and ask for opinions and helps brainstorming) So one I’ve been playing with for a while is a (loose) retelling of _The Hobbit_ with elements of _Oliver Twist_ in post-apocalyptic Iceland (I also have a number of saga retellings set in post-apocalyptic Iceland- one of them is _Volsunga Saga_, which _The Hobbit_ is basically a very loose retelling of; in the Poetic Edda Sigurd’s foster father Reginn is identified as a dwarf. Thorin has certain similarities with Reginn in character and role in the plot; I would argue Sigurd’s role is split between Bilbo and Bard The Bowman. There is however, no Brynhild or Gudrun in the plot although Fafnir is basically Smaug.) I do know a bit about medieval and modern Iceland-- from research for the Volsunga Saga retelling I mentioned. All I really know about this idea is that it’s set in a pseudo-medieval post-apocalyptic world where dwarves, elves and Orcs are the results of synthetic biology. Dragons are biological weapons. Thorin’s name is now Thorarinn and he’s a dwarven gangster. Bjarki (Bilbo) is a human boy from the thrall class and Fíli and Kíli are now Fjalar and Kjalar. What does everyone think? ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/2 "2013-12-26T08:37:23Z")
Sounds like a pretty neat fanfiction, but it won’t ever get published. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/3 "2013-12-26T08:45:35Z")
BTW, _The Hobbit_ without the magical elements is basically a heist story about a guy who joins a group of outsiders led by a man whose family fortune and ancestral home were stolen by an enemy and who assembles a group to steal his property back with the help of a knowledgeable acquaintance. With some adjustments the basic plot could be a crime thriller or a cyberpunk or steampunk novel. (There are some AU fics on the Archive of Our Own site which are retellings of the story in various different settings and genres) ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/4 "2013-12-26T08:51:53Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Sounds like a pretty neat fanfiction, but it won’t ever get published. Take a look at the basic plot of The Hobbit (without the dwarves, the wizard, or Smaug). It’s basically a heist story about a guy who gets roped into helping a stranger recover a family fortune. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/5 "2013-12-26T09:25:52Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > What does everyone think? I think the real world heist story sounds far more interesting than the story you want to write. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/6 "2013-12-26T10:04:44Z")
More notes on _The Hobbit_: Bilbo is Tolkien’s take on a stock character from Icelandic sagas; the coward who gains courage and becomes a hero eg; Hjalti, Bodvar Bjarki’s friend in _Hrolfs saga kraka_. Neville Longbottom in _Harry Potter_ is another example of this type of character. Tolkien’s main original contribution was to make the coward the protagonist and an audience surrogate so that the reader got to follow his transformation into a hero. He subverted folktale and saga conventions by making Beorn “under no enchantment by his own.” _That_ is what makes \*The Hobbit \* original. Not its plot. @Grumman: The heist thing was there as a summary of the basic plot of _The Hobbit_ because _that’s what_ _The Hobbit_ _is_. It’s a heist story. Here’s how I would summarise the basic plot. > [@](#): > > THE HOBBIT BASIC PLOT > > A man who likes his comfortable and conventional life is recruited by a family friend to help out a friend-of-a friend who has lost his family fortune and social position due to an enemy and has assembled a group of his own friends and acquaintances to help him out. To regain the money our hero will have to rob the enemy’s home-- which is the friend’s old home. The journey there and the protagonist’s transformation into a hero takes up most of the story. See what I mean? In fact I believe that if someone wrote a story based on that plot summary it would probably not be recognisable as _The Hobbit_ unless the writer told you (in general) their inspiration or someone caught any references they made in the story itself. Even if the characters had similar personalities. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/7 "2013-12-26T10:13:34Z")
_but_ And “friend-of-a-friend” should be “eldest son of a friend.” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/8 "2013-12-26T10:33:30Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > @Grumman: The heist thing was there as a summary of the basic plot of _The Hobbit_ because _that’s what_ _The Hobbit_ _is_. It’s a heist story. > > Here’s how I would summarise the basic plot. > > See what I mean? In fact I believe that if someone wrote a story based on that plot summary it would probably not be recognisable as _The Hobbit_ unless the writer told you (in general) their inspiration or someone caught any references they made in the story itself. Even if the characters had similar personalities. I get that. What I’m saying is that if someone wrote a story based on that plot summary, I think it would be a better story than the one you’re actually planning to write. The story is better before you start throwing in stuff like “synthetic biology”. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/9 "2013-12-26T10:54:28Z")
@Grumman: OK that’s more understandable and clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/10 "2013-12-26T12:48:40Z")
I’d also like to add here that my two inspirations were quotes from JRRT himself about the Khazad (Tolkienian Dwarves) > [@JRR Tolkien](#): > > I do think of the ‘Dwarves’ like Jews: at once alien and native in their habitations; speaking the language of the country with an accent due to their own private tongue… > [@JRR Tolkien](#): > > The Dwarves are Semitic, obviously… And you (in general) as a reader can see echoes of casual British anti-Semitism in attitudes to the Dwarves as undesirable, particularly in Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. I can, at least. (This is reflected quite well in the first Hobbit movie IMO). In particular my idea was that this was going to be a comment on the use of stereotypes in Fantasy Counterpart Cultures as well as the use of race, ethnicity and religion in fiction full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/11 "2013-12-26T13:35:06Z")
_The Hobbit_ was influenced by a lot of things. Norse mythology was one of them. I think it’s more accurate to say that it was influenced by Norse legends than by the Völsunga saga particularly. The Wikipedia subsection on the influences on _The Hobbit_ doesn’t even specifically mention the Völsunga saga: > **[The Hobbit | Influences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit#Influences)** > > One of the greatest influences on Tolkien was the 19th-century Arts and Crafts polymath William Morris. Tolkien wished to imitate Morris's prose and poetry romances, following the general style and approach of the work. The Desolation of Smaug as portraying dragons as detrimental to landscape, has been noted as an explicit motif borrowed from Morris. Tolkien wrote also of being impressed as a boy by Samuel Rutherford Crockett's historical novel The Black Douglas and of basing the Necroman Tolkien... However you tell this story, I suggest that you do so in a way that most people will not immediately say, “Hey, this is just a retelling of _The Hobbit_.” If you actually got such a book published, you’d be sued into bankruptcy - not by the Tolkien estate, but by Tolkien Enterprises (a.k.a. Middle-earth Enterprises). This is the corporation that owns the movie rights to _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. This company has been suing people right and left. Often it’s for things that they don’t really own the rights for, like items in Tolkien’s books that don’t originally come from the movies. Indeed, they’ve been suing people for items that really come from earlier sources that Tolkien drew upon. This is a big corporation willing to keep other people in court for long enough to bankrupt them. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/12 "2013-12-26T14:01:32Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > _The Hobbit_ was influenced by a lot of things. Norse mythology was one of them. I think it’s more accurate to say that it was influenced by Norse legends than by the Völsunga saga particularly. The Wikipedia subsection on the influences on _The Hobbit_ doesn’t even specifically mention the Völsunga saga: > > [The Hobbit - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hobbit#Influences) > > However you tell this story, I suggest that you do so in a way that most people will not immediately say, “Hey, this is just a retelling of _The Hobbit_.” If you actually got such a book published, you’d be sued into bankruptcy - not by the Tolkien estate, but by Tolkien Enterprises (a.k.a. Middle-earth Enterprises). This is the corporation that owns the movie rights to _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. This company has been suing people right and left. Often it’s for things that they don’t really own the rights for, like items in Tolkien’s books that don’t originally come from the movies. Indeed, they’ve been suing people for items that really come from earlier sources that Tolkien drew upon. This is a big corporation willing to keep other people in court for long enough to bankrupt them. Pat Murphy wrote a book that is obviously a retelling of the Hobbit (called “There and Back Again” [http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/murphy.html](http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/murphy.html)) and has not been sued as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/13 "2013-12-26T14:21:55Z")
Thanks, Andy. I note, however, that _There and Back Again_ was published in 1999. Tolkien Enterprises only became aggressive in its court actions after the movies came out. Perhaps they don’t care about a book that’s now out of print. But now I’m only guessing. I don’t know what they would do now. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/14 "2013-12-26T22:38:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Thanks, Andy. I note, however, that _There and Back Again_ was published in 1999. Tolkien Enterprises only became aggressive in its court actions after the movies came out. Perhaps they don’t care about a book that’s now out of print. But now I’m only guessing. I don’t know what they would do now. _ **Wendell** _ it’s not actually a Hobbit adaptation. It’s similar to the Hobbit and OT. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/15 "2013-12-27T00:15:29Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Thanks, Andy. I note, however, that _There and Back Again_ was published in 1999. Tolkien Enterprises only became aggressive in its court actions after the movies came out. Perhaps they don’t care about a book that’s now out of print. But now I’m only guessing. I don’t know what they would do now. Yeah, I don’t know either. I had forgotten how long ago Murphy’s book had been written (time flies). She didn’t use any terms originated by Tolkien (Murphy’s hero is a “norbit,” not a hobbit), which may make a difference, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/16 "2013-12-27T01:02:47Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know either. I had forgotten how long ago Murphy’s book had been written (time flies). She didn’t use any terms originated by Tolkien (Murphy’s hero is a “norbit,” not a hobbit), which may make a difference, I suppose. I’m not using the word “hobbit” either. BTW apparently the word appeared in the Denham Tracts. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/17 "2013-12-27T01:21:24Z")
[del]The names Thorarinn and Thorinn are not the same btw [/del] ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/18 "2013-12-27T05:19:55Z")
Tolkien Enterprises doesn’t care that the word “hobbit” came from a much earlier work. They’ve sued a pub called the Hobbit and a cafe called the Hungry Hobbit for copyright infringement. Tolkien Enterprises is owned by Saul Zaentz. Zaentz ended up owing all the rights to the Creedence Clearwater Revival songs. He then sued John Fogerty for writing new songs that he claimed sounded like the songs he wrote for Creedence Clearwater Revival. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/19 "2013-12-27T10:51:31Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Tolkien Enterprises doesn’t care that the word “hobbit” came from a much earlier work. They’ve sued a pub called the Hobbit and a cafe called the Hungry Hobbit for copyright infringement. Tolkien Enterprises is owned by Saul Zaentz. Zaentz ended up owing all the rights to the Creedence Clearwater Revival songs. He then sued John Fogerty for writing new songs that he claimed sounded like the songs he wrote for Creedence Clearwater Revival. Oh yeah I heard about those… Like I said I’m not using the word “hobbit.” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200/20 "2013-12-27T12:15:44Z")
Here’s more articles about what Tolkien Enterprises (a.k.a. Middle-earth Enterprises) is claiming to own the rights to and is willing to sue people over: > **[Making Sense of the latest Tolkien Lawsuit](http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/07/16/75725-making-sense-of-the-latest-tolkien-lawsuit/)** > > Further to our earlier report this week, attorney and message board member Douglas C. Kane aka Voronwë the Faithful has once again sent us a breakdown on the latest Tolkien Lawsuit. MAKING SENSE OF THE LATEST TOLKIEN LAWSUIT By Douglas C. Kane... > **[Examiner is back - Examiner.com](https://examiner.com)** > > Examiner.com is the go-to source for millions of people who want to know what's happening in their city. And we're still growing! [http://savetheshire.mymiddleearth.com/a-note-from-our-founders/](http://savetheshire.mymiddleearth.com/a-note-from-our-founders/) [https://www.lotro.com/en/forums/showthread.php?515797-What-is-the-real-License-Rights-between-Tolkien-Tolkien-Estates-Saul-Zaentz-Comp&highlight=](https://www.lotro.com/en/forums/showthread.php?515797-What-is-the-real-License-Rights-between-Tolkien-Tolkien-Estates-Saul-Zaentz-Comp&highlight=) As time goes on, they have been gradually increasing the number of things that they claim to own the rights to. No, they haven’t so far sued anyone for using the bare plot of _The Hobbit_ without any of the names from any of the books. That doesn’t mean that they won’t do so eventually. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morwens-stories-and-story-ideas-thread/677200.md?page=2)