Is that true, though? They were charged with hooliganism and inciting religious hatred, both of which I’m pretty sure were crimes in Russia before they did what they did. They strengthened the inciting religious hatred law after Pussy Riot’s actions, but they were charged under the old law. (The new law took effect July 1, 2013.)
The law they were charged against was hooliganism, which is defined as:
“The flagrant violation of public order expressed by a clear disrespect for society”
Specifically, they were charged under article 2 of that law, which bans " hooliganism committed for reasons of politics, ideology, racism, nationalism, religious hatred, or enmity with respect to any social group". That was against the law when they did it, and it still is now.
Well, this is confusing. I was under the impression they were charged under the old law. tomndebb and Czarcasm pop up and tell me that no, they were charged retroactively under a new law, tailor-made for the case. I say damn, that’s fucked up.
Then Captain Amazing pops up and explains that they were in fact charged under the old law after all!
So, what’s the straight dope? Were they charged under the old law, or under the new law? Which one is it?
During the last, recently ended, century, the Russian government indulged in a rather a lengthy experiment with official atheism. It did not work out too well, and there has been a strong reaction against it. Under those circumstances, it should come as no surprise that the current Russian government is closely allied to the Orthodox church, and keen to be seen to be so allied. Putin does not care about democracy much (and I do not know that most of the Russian people care very much either), but it is important to him that people see him as not-a-Communist.
i suspect that there are many more Russian women who are pious Christians and who want to see Pussy Riot severely punished than there are ones who support them.
Of course, from the time of the Tsars, the Kremlin has a cathedral right there within it. That is what those onion domes are. The Orthodox church wsa deeply implicated in teh rule of the Tsars, and it is once again deeply implicated in the rule of the post-Communist leadership.
I’m glad that you consider the half a dozen people praying in a church as empty. Shows what a religious person’s devotions are to you. And, in many communities, people in a church praying is considered a ‘service’.
The Pussy Riot retards got what was coming to them. They went to a church, rather than a police station, to protest something they didn’t like-why? Because they were being fucks. If they had such a marvelous message for the nation, why go to a church? Hell, why stop at a church? Why not go all the way, and go to a retirement home that doesn’t have security? How about on the doorstep of some aged handicapped widow’s home, at midnight? That would show what rebels they were, and let everybody know that THE MAN wasn’t going to keep them down!
Hooliganism is just about right for what they did.
They didn’t interrupt a church service, AFAIK. In any case, in a country headed by an authoritian who has no interest in things such as freedom of the press, fair elections and so on, and who is backed by the church, I’m perfectly fine with people disrupting church services and pretty much anything else, anyway. What would be unacceptable in a free country is commendable in Russia.
In America big money is in bed with Washington. Now try disrupting some big Corp. in any way and see what happens.
This is very, very clearly a case of Americans using a double standard when judging others, especially when, among advanced countries, America as a whole is one of the countries which:
1- Has least tolerance for public nudity
2- Has least tolerance for “disturbing the peace”
3- Has least tolerance for not complying blindly and immediately with police orders
4- Has a per capita prison population which is many times higher than that or Russia or any other advanced country or even China and other bad dictatorships.
And yet Americans feel the need to chastise Russia rather than fix their own house.
My view is that Pussy Riot are assholes, not worthwhile political activists, and they can take the punishment.
This does not mean I like the situation in Russia where there is an authoritarian, corrupt government which can be improved.
This does not mean the American system of government is much better, it is just rigged and corrupt in a different way.
But in every country the powerful pay lip service to the masses while they ensure their own dominance and privilege. And anyone who threatens the power of those in power will be dealt with one way or another. That is universal.
I would disagree. I’ve my share of issue with USA policies, laws, etc…but if given the choice between becoming an American citizen or a Russian citizen, I would pick the USA without a second thought. The USA is a free country, Russia isn’t.
Would you seriously hesitate if given the same choice?
How long would they last protesting like that inside the White House or the U.S Capitol?
The place to protest is in a public place where people can see you protesting but where you are not impeding other people’s activities. In America you are not allowed to invade a private space to protest, freedom of expression not withstanding.
And, as much as I like looking at boobies, I cannot take seriously a group which restricts its membership to young, fit females. Men, older women and young fatties need not apply. Yeah, hard to take their political message seriously. In interviews they always seem sour and angry. I have never seen one of them smile. They are just bitter assholes.
Recently three Pussy Riots did their Pussy Riot thing in the Spanish parliament shouting “abortion is a sacred right”. (!) One of them stepped over the railing of the gallery with a serious risk of falling down below injuring herself and whoever she fell on.
As far as I am concerned they can go and demonstrate to their hearts’ content in the street or the beach but not where they are impeding other people’s business.
Again, in America they would be treated just as harshly and if they did not immedialy follow police orders, like they don’t elsewhere, they would risk being tasered or shot and lots of Americans would be here to justify it. That is what I find scary.
Or what NORAD, huh? … They weren’t in a government building.
That’s the cute U.S.-based view, yes. In the age of free speech zones we seem to have decided the most important thing about the right to protest is that nobody see it unless they want to. This has nothing to do with Russia, though. The situation they’re protesting is considerably more urgent.
That’s also a crappy way to evaluate protests and dissent.
No, they would not. We don’t have laws against blasphemy, ex post faco laws are forbidden by the Constitution, the trial was something of a joke, and they wouldn’t have been sentenced to years in prison for trespassing.
ahem… I think you just may be a bit confused. Are you conflating Pussy Riot and the Femen? One’s based in Russia, the other in Paris (and originally from Ukraine). Both are Slavic, involve women, and are given to scandalous political protests, but the similarity ends there.
I already posted from Wikipedia which contradicts the ex-post-facto assertion and also that they were jailed for long time before trial. In fact they probably got a speedy trial by US standards (which, of course, will be used by Americans to prove it was rigged; you can’t win for losing).
And I do not think I need to post specific cases of people in America being shot or tasered for not immediately following police orders.But we can start that debate too. Where is a person more likely to be shot or tasered for not immediately following police orders? Or for just being confused or not understanding or for being mentally unstable, or for …? The violence used by American authorities has no parallel in any civilized country. None. I know Americans like to pretend otherwise but the numbers are there. In America people are killed by authorities for very little reason and many Americans support that. This is just incomprehensible in the rest of the civilized world. Interaction with police is much more confrontational in America than in other countries.
So, yeah, America can say “we are the freest country because we can vote” but that is bullshit. No other country incarcerates people like America does, no other country has the kind of police abuse and brutality America has. For those in jail or shot by police I doubt they would consider America the freest country in the world. (Not to mention those that went broke due to sickness and many other victims of the system.)
You are asking a question which hits much closer to home than you can imagine. For me it is not hypothetical; I have had to make a very similar choice. I am not going to share the details in public but the short of it is that short of a gun to my head I would never want to be American and would pay a high price to avoid it. That’s all I am saying in public.
I already said I disagree with their treatment. My point is that Americans seem to think America is the standard by which the rest of the world should be judged and this is just not so. Other countries have laws I disagree with but that is what they have chosen for themselves. America has laws I disagree with. There are plenty of laws in Europe I disagree with. What I object to is the condescension and arrogance of judging other countries as if American standards are universal. They are not and, not only that, America in many ways is the outlier.
Well, if we are saying Russia is a police state with no freedom then I think my comparisons are relevant.
Again, I am not defending Russian authorities in this case, far from it. What I am saying to those who are so quick to condemn others is that the world would be a better place if we tried to be more understanding with other countries and cultures and we were more critical with our own culture and tried to fix our own culture first. Each and every culture has plenty that needs fixing but they all want to fix the others and not their own. And that is a serious problem.
I think maybe you should object less to condescension and more to the way people are being treated. Nobody is arrogantly presuming the American standard of free speech and dissent are universal, they’re saying it would be better in this case if they were- and they’re correct.