# Moscow - should they storm the theatre? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670 "2002-10-24T12:51:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/41 "2002-10-26T03:57:14Z")
[Wooohooo!](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20021026/ap_on_re_eu/russia_theater_raid) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/42 "2002-10-26T03:57:16Z")
Damn slow connection! Things are now happening faster than I can download and translate them. Sounds like Spetsnaz (along with firemen?) have stormed the building and freed the bulk of the hostages; many are losing consciousness after they leave the building. The terrorists have surrendered, and some are being led out in handcuffs. Deminers and medical personnel are entering the building to sclean up the mess. Up to 10 hostages have been killed. There is still sniper fire in the area. I’ll post this now and refresh [regions.ru](http://regions.ru) as things develop. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/43 "2002-10-26T04:01:11Z")
Heheh, looks like Yahoo! beat ya to it. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/44 "2002-10-26T04:04:53Z")
Seems the raid took place after hostages noted the smell of gas, upon which the captors killed 2 of them. A group decided to make a break for it, and almost all the hostages are now out. Most of their captors have been killed, but some are still accounted for, and Spetsnaz is going into the building to make sure they don’t change into street clothes and sneak out among the remaining hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/45 "2002-10-26T04:06:08Z")
Well!!! Kudos to Russian special forces if this is all happenng as reported. How did they pull this off without the bad guys pulling the explosives? I can’t believe this has all ended reasonably happily. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/46 "2002-10-26T04:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Heheh, looks like Yahoo! beat ya to it. \*\* Well, I certainly hope Yahoo! has better hardware than I do! Damn dialup connection! I’m simultaneously refreshing, reading, and translating [regions.ru](http://regions.ru) in my head, while trying to torture the SDMB hamsters, all with a 56K modem! Plus my typing isn’t so good when I’m excited. So cut me some slack, willya? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/47 "2002-10-26T04:13:06Z")
Besides, don’t I get any credit for my amazingly accurate predictions? Apparently ~10 min. between my prediction that things would blow shortly and them blowing. So I guess my ex did teach me something. And no, I haven’t heard from him in over 10 years…although it wouldn’t at all surprise me to find out that he was involved in this; I’m just not sure on which side. But that’s a thread for another day. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/48 "2002-10-26T05:36:23Z")
**Eva Luna** , you must have lived an interesting life. Hope someday you’ll tell us all your adventures. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/49 "2002-10-26T07:15:58Z")
Well, I was wrong, and I am happy about that. Clever stuff! [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2363475.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2363475.stm) "Russian security forces have brought a dramatic end to the three-day siege in a Moscow theatre, where Chechen rebels were holding hundreds of people hostage. … The special forces used sleeping gas to subdue the rebels and a number of hostages were brought out unconscious, state-controlled ORT television reported. " ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/50 "2002-10-26T07:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > **Is there some kind of anaesthetic gas that can be used?** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jojo_ > **They flood the theatre with some kind of sub-lethal poisonous gas. Not a sleeping gas, because that would be too slow acting, but an actual proper poison gas. Something that would knock everyone out real quick.** [http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021026\_158.html](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021026_158.html) > [@](#): > > Russian forces reportedly threw sleeping gas into the theater and many of the freed hostages were unconscious or in shock as they were loaded onto buses. The type of gas was not immediately known. Good thinking y’all. I’m wondering what kind of gas they used. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/51 "2002-10-26T10:45:27Z")
Cudos to the Russian special forces! Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/52 "2002-10-26T12:15:22Z")
Not entirely successful, unfortunately - latest estimates are that around [67 hostages died in the raid](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_697365.html?menu=news.latestheadlines), and an unspecified number of the gunmen escaped (believed to be around 50 according to some reports). ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/53 "2002-10-26T12:22:21Z")
Well…that depends on which paragraph you decide to believe: > [@](#): > > Shortly after the storming, officials said some of the estimated 50 gunmen were believed to have fled during the chaos and melted into the Russian capital, but Federal Security Service chief Nikolai Patrushev told President Vladimir Putin hours later none of the captors had escaped. > > He said 32 of the gunmen were killed and an unspecified number seized. In the same meeting with Putin, Interior Minister Boris Gryzlov said about 30 accomplices of the gunmen had been arrested in the Moscow area, but details are not immediately available. Either way, I consider this outcome to be (sadly) one of the best possible outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/54 "2002-10-26T12:25:50Z")
Sorry, I misread that first para. I tend to agree; it’s not a good outcome, but it’s perhaps the best we could have hoped for. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/55 "2002-10-26T13:11:37Z")
Well, that was a night to remember. Being a news junkie I was unable to get any sleep until the finale. I think that was one of the most exciting news stories I’ve heard in years, right down to the happy ending. phew. Now the Russians need to consider why their actions in Chechnya make people desperate enough to do that kind of thing. OK the terrorists were nutjobs but there will always be nutjobs in the world. Russia seem to be following the Israeli school of thought in handling dissent in Chechnya, not a good move. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/56 "2002-10-26T14:18:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jojo \* > \*\*Well, that was a night to remember. > > Being a news junkie I was unable to get any sleep until the finale. I think that was one of the most exciting news stories I’ve heard in years, right down to the happy ending. phew. > > Now the Russians need to consider why their actions in Chechnya make people desperate enough to do that kind of thing. OK the terrorists were nutjobs but there will always be nutjobs in the world. > > Russia seem to be following the Israeli school of thought in handling dissent in Chechnya, not a good move. \*\* Damn straight on paragraph #2. Frankly, I’ve been surprised for quite a while that the Chechen rebels hadn’t resorted to something like this. I wouldn’t be so fast to call this a happy ending, though; in addition to the 67 dead hostages, I think we sure as hell haven’t seen the last of this sort of thing, because the Russians sure won’t give up Chechnya without a helluva fight. (Yes, much like the Israelis, only without any sort of peace offer ever being laid on the table other than "we get to tell you what to do, because we’re bigger than you.) Not to be a conspiracy theorist, because Russia took over the North Caucasus long before this would have been an issue, but one of the major oil pipelines (that carries Azerbaijani oil to Western markets) runs close to Grozny. And there are certainly other geopolitical issues involved here, not to mention that Russia is absolutely terrified of the domino effect if they let the “uppity Chechens” have their way. And on that lovely note, I’m off to make some coffee… ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/57 "2002-10-26T14:50:51Z")
Eva, I’m not very up on the Chechnya conflict. Do you mind if I ask you some questions while you’re here (apologies if these sound like stupid questions): - Has Chechnya _ever_ been independent of Russia? - Do most of the people in Chechnya want independence or do the militants represent a minority view? - If it is the case that the majority want independence, have they always wanted independence or is it a recent thing (since the oil started flowing)? - Couldn’t some kind of compromise be worked out eg Russia grants them limited self-government but retains control of the pipeline (and also stays in control of security issues)? ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/58 "2002-10-26T16:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jojo \* > \*\*Eva, I’m not very up on the Chechnya conflict. Do you mind if I ask you some questions while you’re here (apologies if these sound like stupid questions): > > - Has Chechnya _ever_ been independent of Russia? > > - Do most of the people in Chechnya want independence or do the militants represent a minority view? > > - If it is the case that the majority want independence, have they always wanted independence or is it a recent thing (since the oil started flowing)? > > - Couldn’t some kind of compromise be worked out eg Russia grants them limited self-government but retains control of the pipeline (and also stays in control of security issues)? \*\* I’m not being addressed, but I feel like answering some to the best of my ability. 1. Yes, in the 19th century. 2. Unsure. A good portion do. 3. Independence has been desired ever since they were conquered roughly 150 years ago, long before oil. 4. Probably not. Ethnic pride and cultural conflicts, not economics, account for the majority of the issue. Update: As many as 90 hostages died, some apparently the result of choking in their vomit on the sleeping gas, others because of lack of medicine. Fifty terrorists were killed, three arrested, and two escaped. Regardless of the tragic deaths by vomit drowning, I still feel the gas was the most effective method. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Clawman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@The\_Clawman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Clawman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/59 "2002-10-26T17:00:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jojo \* > \*\*Well, that was a night to remember. > > Being a news junkie I was unable to get any sleep until the finale. I think that was one of the most exciting news stories I’ve heard in years, right down to the happy ending. phew. > > \*\* Do you perhaps want to reconsider your use of the word “exciting” here? ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670/60 "2002-10-26T17:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you perhaps want to reconsider your use of the word “exciting” here? No, not really. If you look “exciting” up in a dictionary you’ll see I used the word correctly. It means “a state of agitation”. The word “exciting” doesn’t carry moral or judgemental overtones. Tragic things can be exciting as well as good things. Obviously this was exciting in a bad way but it was still exciting. For the removal of doubt, however, you can replace the word “exciting” with the word “unnerving” if you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moscow-should-they-storm-the-theatre/133670.md?page=4)