# Moslem vs. Muslim Usage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471 "2014-11-12T19:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/41 "2014-11-14T21:27:44Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I haven’t heard anyone use the [Muslim with an s] pronunciation, but I can’t recall having heard any one at all in a position to speak with knowledge saying the word at all. I don’t hang out on talking head TV shows. How about **The Daily Show**? I’ve noticed recently that Aasif Mandvi, whenever he has occasion to say “Muslim,” ALWAYS pronounces it “Muss-lim.” As it’s his religion, I figure he knows what he’s talking about. Aasif doesn’t seem to be appearing on the **Daily Show** these days as often as he used to, but he does occasionally turn up. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/42 "2014-11-14T21:55:35Z")
Color me now convinced. Ignorance fought. I’m going to bet that Islam / Islamist / Islamic is best pronounced with an S and not a Z also? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/43 "2014-11-14T22:54:03Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Why be insulting to some if it is easily avoided by not using the term ( which _is_ quite archaic in any academic sense )? Literally the only times I’ve seen it used in the 21rst century to refer to actual Muslims is in a slightly sneering way by those with an axe to grind. And even in those contexts it is rare. > > Another one for the dustbin of history IMHO. Jinnah, for one, used ‘Mohammedan’ as well as ‘Muslim’. > **[Jinnah](https://books.google.com/books?id=LI2aAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT65&lpg=PT65&dq=jinnah%2Bmohammedan&source=bl&ots=QKvsUAQli3&sig=dAPXMTHNJzk0agH96ppUPV_3_-o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=modmVLKILIrIsATAsIGgBA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jinnah%20mohammedan&f=false)** > > Lord Mountbatten: I tried every trick I could play... to shake Jinnah\\'s resolve.Nothing wouldmove him from his consuming determination to realise the dream of Pakistan...The date I chose (for Independence) came out of the blue. I was determined... ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/44 "2014-11-14T23:21:49Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Jinnah, for one, used ‘Mohammedan’ as well as ‘Muslim’. Jinnah died 66 years ago. There is a reason I specifically said 21rst century and not 20th ;). Jinnah received an Anglo-centric education in the 19th century ( he became a lawyer in the 1890’s ) and it is exactly in _much older_ British academic works that I’ve seen the term used most often. But it was almost certainly waning by the time Jinnah passed and it definitely has become archaic now. I doubt your’re going to see it used seriously in any modern English-language academic work in this day and age ( excluding folks with an anti-Muslim agenda ). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/45 "2014-11-14T23:28:30Z")
oops. nm. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/46 "2014-11-15T03:59:54Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Good point. Also remember that this is the case for Muhammad as well. “Muhammad” seems to be the preferred spelling in US English at the present time, but it can also be spelled “Mohammed” or “Mahomet”. All of those map to the same Arabic name. Iirc, “Muhammad” is currently favored here because its obvious natural pronunciation in English is closest to the original Arabic. Mapping between languages is always imperfect, so the other two are not “wrong” per se, just arguably less accurate. I’ve also heard recently that some Muslims consider “Mahomet” to be inherently pejorative. This because the name Muhammad in Arabic means “the praised one”, but “ma” is a negation in Arabic, making the “mahomet” pronunciation closer to “Mahomind”, which would mean “he who **isn’t** praised”. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/47 "2014-11-15T04:16:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’ve also heard recently that some Muslims consider “Mahomet” to be inherently pejorative. > This because the name Muhammad in Arabic means “the praised one”, but “ma” is a negation in Arabic, making the “mahomet” pronunciation closer to “Mahomind”, which would mean “he who **isn’t** praised”. Huh, I don’t know where that leaves [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud), but perhaps it is context. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/48 "2014-11-15T05:22:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That might very well be true–among those speakers of English sufficiently aware of the situation to make use of it. I doubt that one English speaker in a thousand is even aware of the possible insult. Moslem was the _de facto_ usage for many decades. I agree, but if your heroes on Fox News pronounce it mahzlm your probably going to follow suit. I have witnessed this with my father in law. (Generic “your” - I don’t mean you specifically) ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/49 "2014-11-15T09:20:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This because the name Muhammad in Arabic means “the praised one” The implications of this point in particular are interesting, when we consider again the work of Luxemberg, who through his Arabic/Syro-Aramaic analysis reinterprets the inscription on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem from “There is no god but God alone . . . Mohammed the servant of God and messenger” to “There is no god but God alone . . . Praised be the servant of God and his messenger.” In other words, that this is in fact a message about Christ in the context of debates in Syriac Christianity. As we consider the possible evolution of a Syriac Christian sect into Islam, the initial role of Muhammad becomes more interesting. I am willing to bet, though, that most people using a word like Mohammedan in the 21st Century Anglosphere are not making some conclusion derived from the works of Wansbrough, Crone, and Luxemberg. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/50 "2014-11-15T10:56:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You’re free to be offended by whatever you choose, and other people are free not to care. Yes this is true. and of course one is free to call the black Americans Negros and Nigras and pretend that because in the prior centuries this was okay, that there is no change in meaning or sense in this century. and other people will be free to understand other motivations and conclude things not positive about the character of the person. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I’ve also heard recently that some Muslims consider “Mahomet” to be inherently pejorative. > This because the name Muhammad in Arabic means “the praised one”, but “ma” is a negation in Arabic, making the “mahomet” pronunciation closer to “Mahomind”, which would mean “he who **isn’t** praised”. No, this would not be something a native Arabic speaker would conclude. To hear Mohamet is simply to hear a Turkish pronounciation. If someone makes this claim they are not mastering arabic and/or they are likely of the sort of person who seeks out offense. > [@nani](#): > > The implications of this point in particular are interesting, when we consider again the work of Luxemberg, If you insist on keeping this line, it is necessary to note that the work is not considered very credible in the extreme of its assertions and it is very tied to a Christianist argument. It is not GQ to pretend this argument is a widely supported view outside of certain circles with religious / ideological views. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/51 "2014-11-15T12:08:10Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > If you insist on keeping this line, it is necessary to note that the work is not considered very credible in the extreme of its assertions and it is very tied to a Christianist argument. It is not GQ to pretend this argument is a widely supported view outside of certain circles with religious / ideological views. I believe that the disclaimer I gave when I first mentioned Luxemberg is enough to demonstrate the reception of his scholarship, reinforced by my followup qualification of the [“possible” evolution of early Islam](http://books.google.co.il/books?id=EiKxXBc95b8C&pg=PT81&lpg=PT81&dq=documentar+hypothesis+qur%27an&source=bl&ots=8VwaHXpm-V&sig=1kDEXtAdwFfJJWLviIf1W4Ts5mQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=f8lhVMi5M5Pvar_Qggg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=documentar%20hypothesis%20qur'an&f=false) (cite talks about possible milieus, if not genetic parentages, for the creation of the Qur’an). As it is, I place Luxemberg’s work in the “ambitious, needs further study” category, and in the realm of respectable scholarship. It remains to be seen where he will go with this; Crone (who has criticized Luxemberg’s work) has mostly stepped away from her early and provocative book _Hagarism_, but what has grown more mainstream since she wrote that is a strong skepticism of traditional Islamic historical narratives. The problem with talking about ‘credible’ in regards to early Islamic history is that the direct evidence is so slim; we haven’t had a Qumran Scrolls moment happening yet. With the way the Saudis are bulldozing Mecca, we might never have it. This is why both my posts referred to the issue of originality that often guides discussions of Islam, the Qur’an, and as we see, issues like pronunciation. Luxemberg is a fine example of how modern scholarship is questioning what we think we know, even if his specific arguments are on the more radical end. He isn’t alone in this pursuit; Lüling and Azzi are similarly on the radical end and even more mainstream scholars such as de Blois, Van Reeth, and Neuwirth have done compelling work questioning facets of traditional narratives of early Islam, a scholarly trend in the West popularly started by Wansbrough in the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/52 "2014-11-15T12:21:59Z")
Me I like Mussulman or paynim or follower of Mahound. OK, I’m kidding, these were all epithets used historically for Muslims when the two major religions were constantly at each other’s throats. Now hopefully only a small minority of Christians and Muslims want to commit each other to eternal perdition, although such minorities can be a threat out of all proportion to their numbers. Personally, as a life-long atheist, I think the sooner people stop believing in imaginary super-beings the better for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/53 "2014-11-15T12:36:29Z")
without any comment on these observations, and I think you present these things more strongly than merited, none of this tells you very much about the modern arabic or these words and their pronunciations. It is importing other considerations. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/54 "2014-11-15T13:04:00Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > this issue came up in my master’s thesis revisions, and the committee member who requested the change to Muslim said that it was more PC. Not a very thorough explanation, but I just made the change. So presumably we have a university committee (the very essence of PC) presumably familiar with the topic if they are examining a thesis which uses the term, and only one member felt it was inappropriate? That does not give me confidence in the veracity of the “story” about the spellings. If I search for example, the Telegraph, CBC, Washington Post, I can find occasional uses of the term “Moslem” rather than “Muslim”. In some other media, the word is mainly used in letters and comments. In York University, the written response by a university professor to a student’s request to be excluded from working with women- > [@](#): > > “York is a secular university. It is not a Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, or \*\*Moslem \*\*university. In our policy documents and (hopefully) in our classes we cling to the secular idea that all should be treated equally, independent of, for example, their religion or sex or race. > > “Treating Mr. X equally would mean that, like other students, he is expected to interact with female students in his group.” My guess is that the “offensive” claim is a bogus story made up by people looking to find an excuse to be claim offense, the reason why is an extreme stretch based on weird pronunciations, either term is simply the same transliteration using different rules and accents for the pronunciation - and in the long run, us ignorant inarticulate westerners pronounce both spellings pretty much the same. If you want to listen to Arabic voices, try [Holy Quran :: شبكة المسلم](http://www.el-moslem.com/eQuraan.php) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/55 "2014-11-15T13:39:07Z")
it seems to me the sensitivity in the anglophone sphere is coming from the south asian anglophone muslims whose native languages use the Persian pronunciations of the quranic terms. The pronunciations in this case are not extreme stretches but are not proper arabic either. I do not see it as offensive, but it is a small thing to use muslim contra moslem in english. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/56 "2014-11-15T13:57:40Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No, this would not be something a native Arabic speaker would conclude. To hear Mohamet is simply to hear a Turkish pronounciation. > > If someone makes this claim they are not mastering arabic and/ **or they are likely of the sort of person who seeks out offense**. Being myself not an Arabic speaker ; and my med.hist. teacher who brought up the idea in class, who is one, having also rejected the theory while tactfully bringing this sort of notion up ; I’ll happily concede that and defer to both of your expertises. But right or wrong, offenderatis or not, I wouldn’t insist on using the word if someone told me it bothered them (even though it is the “proper” French spelling, dixit the _Académie_). It’s not like I have money riding on one transliteration over the other, you know ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/57 "2014-11-15T14:30:25Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it seems to me the sensitivity in the anglophone sphere is coming from the south asian anglophone muslims whose native languages use the Persian pronunciations of the quranic terms. The pronunciations in this case are not extreme stretches but are not proper arabic either. > > I do not see it as offensive, but it is a small thing to use muslim contra moslem in english. Since you sound like you are both reasonable \*and \*know what you’re talking about … My challenge with this sentence > [@](#): > > I do not see it as offensive, but it is a small thing to use muslim contra moslem in English is that for American me, moslem and muslim are pronounced almost identically. So changing the spelling doesn’t accomplish anything _for me_. How are these two words to be reasonably pronounced by an English speaker so one is different from, and “better” than, the other? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/58 "2014-11-15T14:42:05Z")
I do not know, it would seem strange to me you pronounce them the same but I do not know the Engish dialect you have. The word moslem seems old fashioned in english usage to me, from my reading and experience only finding older anglophones using it, but I am not offended by it and do not really care. The version “muslim” is more current it seems. I would think you pronounce it naturally ‘mus-lim’ which would be identical to the arabic pronunciation. I suppose this is considered more polite. I noted already the idea of the moz-lem pronunciation sounding like the word oppressor in arabic requires the person to be using a persian type pronunciation and not proper Arabic. This is very common in the South Asia - the Afghanistan, the Pakistan, the India etc. muslim populations, so I think if there is a reaction it is coming from them. For formal arabic or my dialect it sounds nothing like this and it would never occur to me. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/59 "2014-11-15T16:26:15Z")
As a side note, the name “musselman” (I’m not in the mood to look it up on this fine Saturday morning) was given by other prisoners in Auschwitz to those who had become shuffling shells dull-eyed waiting for death. Now there’s a cultural backstory I haven’t the faintest clue. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/60 "2014-11-15T18:49:27Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Me I like Mussulman or paynim or follower of Mahound. OK, I’m kidding, these were all epithets used historically for Muslims when the two major religions were constantly at each other’s throats. Now hopefully only a small minority of Christians and Muslims want to commit each other to eternal perdition, although such minorities can be a threat out of all proportion to their numbers. > > Personally, as a life-long atheist, I think the sooner people stop believing in imaginary super-beings the better for all of us. St John of Damascus, one of the earliest Christian polemicists against Islam (and his stuff is great, BTW) referred to them as “Ishmaelites”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471.md?page=4)