# Moslem vs. Muslim Usage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471 "2014-11-12T19:33:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/61 "2014-11-15T19:15:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My challenge with this sentence is that for American me, moslem and muslim are pronounced almost identically. So changing the spelling doesn’t accomplish anything _for me_. How are these two words to be reasonably pronounced by an English speaker so one is different from, and “better” than, the other? I eeally don’t understand what you and some others are on about. A variety of people in this thread have said Muslim, pronounced “muss-lim,” is preferable in English. Nobody has said that Moslem, pronounced “mozz-lim,” is preferable. The only support for Moslem is people insisting that they are equally acceptable. In light of that, what possible reason would there be to continue using Moslem? Why wouldn’t you just say, “okay, Muslim it is” and get on with your life? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/62 "2014-11-15T19:25:42Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > As a side note, the name “musselman” (I’m not in the mood to look it up on this fine Saturday morning) was given by other prisoners in Auschwitz to those who had become shuffling shells dull-eyed waiting for death. > > Now there’s a cultural backstory I haven’t the faintest clue. There are a few theories. One is that they couldn’t stand up; they were so close to death they were always falling over, so they were always on their knees like a Muslim praying. The second is that there was at the time the stereotype of Muslims as weak or inferior. The third is that there was another stereotype that Muslims were fatalistic, so these were the prisoners who had, like Muslims, given up, and stopped trying to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/63 "2014-11-15T19:27:22Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > St John of Damascus, one of the earliest Christian polemicists against Islam (and his stuff is great, BTW) referred to them as “Ishmaelites”. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > … I doubt your’re going to see it used seriously in any modern English-language academic work in this day and age ( excluding folks with an anti-Muslim agenda ). Yes it would be the case, for various prejudices. > [@New harddrive, how to copy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-harddrive-how-to-copy/91581/5): > > Personally, as a life-long atheist, I think the sooner people stop believing in imaginary super-beings the better for all of us. I think the sooner that persons stop attacking others beliefs for no particular motivation, and dropping irrelevant comments in every conversation about a religion or a non-religion and show simple respect, whether it is for the belief or the non-belief, that life would be better. As it escapes me to know what your athiesm belief has anything to do with the word moslem or the word muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/64 "2014-11-15T19:43:28Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > You’re free to be offended by whatever you choose, and other people are free not to care. > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > And anybody who insists on continuing to use “Moslem” in the face of this information is just being…well, something not very nice. > [@Ramira](#): > > and other people will be free to understand other motivations and conclude things not positive about the character of the person. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Personally, as a life-long atheist, I think the sooner people stop believing in imaginary super-beings the better for all of us. > [@Green\_Bean](#): > > I eeally don’t understand what you and some others are on about. > > A variety of people in this thread have said Muslim, pronounced “muss-lim,” is preferable in English. > > Nobody has said that Moslem, pronounced “mozz-lim,” is preferable. The only support for Moslem is people insisting that they are equally acceptable. > > In light of that, what possible reason would there be to continue using Moslem? Why wouldn’t you just say, “okay, Muslim it is” and get on with your life? > [@Ramira](#): > > I think the sooner that persons stop attacking others beliefs for no particular motivation, and dropping irrelevant comments in every conversation about a religion or a non-religion and show simple respect, whether it is for the belief or the non-belief, that life would be better. > > As it escapes me to know what your athiesm belief has anything to do with the word moslem or the word muslim. **Moderating** While the fact that the word may be offensive in some contexts is cogent to this discussion, how people “should” behave with regard to this information is getting out of the sphere of General Questions. So are pokes at religion in general. If you wish to discuss whether or not it’s OK for people to use a word that they are aware might be offensive, please take it to IMHO or Great Debates. Otherwise let’s stick to the more factual aspects of the question. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/65 "2014-11-15T20:01:15Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > My challenge with this sentence is that for American me, moslem and muslim are pronounced almost identically. So changing the spelling doesn’t accomplish anything _for me_. How are these two words to be reasonably pronounced by an English speaker so one is different from, and “better” than, the other? > > I eeally don’t understand what you and some others are on about. > > A variety of people in this thread have said Muslim, pronounced “muss-lim,” is preferable in English. > > Nobody has said that Moslem, pronounced “mozz-lim,” is preferable. The only support for Moslem is people insisting that they are equally acceptable. > > In light of that, what possible reason would there be to continue using Moslem? Why wouldn’t you just say, “okay, Muslim it is” and get on with your life? Bearing the Moderator’s comments in mind … I have failed to communicate. No offense meant or taken. To me the word “Moslem” is pronounced MOZZ-l\m. I accept that the word is now obsolete and to some people offensive; No disagreement there. But the new and improved word Muslim is pronounced by me (and IMO most Americans) as MUZZ-l\m. Which, if anything, sounds even more like the offensive word in Arabic than does “Moslem” as pronounced by Americans. Which makes the change of spelling \*apparently \*make no sense; it \*apparently \*doesn’t improve the situation. Therefore, I have repeatedly asked for somebody, anybody, to tell me how to properly pronounce “Muslim” in the desired non-offensive manner. You, in your most recent post I quoted here, were the first person to do so, suggesting “muss-lim” with a thick unvoiced S sound instead of a Z sound. Thank you. Ignorance finally fought. I’m not trying to be obstructionist or knee-jerk anti-PC. That’s about the antithesis of how I roll. But somehow nobody could see my question or provide an answer. Until now. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/66 "2014-11-15T20:29:39Z")
To clarify again - the word in Arabic that is being called offensvie, is muDHlim - in the classical, the modern formal and in all western spoken dialects this has a sound like a heavy TH or a D, not a Z. The pronunciation is more persian associated. The proper arabic word has no z in it. It did not occur to me that someone in english would say Z for S in Muslim. I have never heard this from an anglophone. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/67 "2014-11-15T22:01:52Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It did not occur to me that someone in english would say Z for S in Muslim. I have never heard this from an anglophone. That’s actually a standard pronunciation as given by Merriam-Webster (although it also includes an “s” pronunciation) which also provides an audio sample. Likewise, Merriam-Webster says that “Moslem” is pronounced with a “z” sound, although it can be “s.” The only difference between the two words is in the initial vowel. [Muslim](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muslim) \ˈməz-ləm, ˈmu̇s-, ˈmu̇z-\ [Moslem](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moslem) \ˈmäz-ləm also ˈmäs- It would appear that the idea that “Moslem” is offensive because it contains a “z” sound while “Muslim” does not is not supported by Merriam-Webster, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471/68 "2014-11-15T22:10:58Z")
hmm perhaps I paid no attention. In any case it is clear that the Z is not the formal and proper pronunciation in Arabic of muDHlim so it is only something from some dialects and more from muslims whose languages have adopted the persian pronunciation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moslem-vs-muslim-usage/704471.md?page=3)