# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/361 "2010-08-16T15:54:07Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > What years were the Crusades? What years were the Taliban, the attack on the USS Cole, September 11, the attack on Madrid trains, on London busses, the bloodbath in Mumbai, the incessant agressions on and refusal to tolerate Israel, etc. etc. > > Do you notice any difference in time frame between the Crusades and those events? It’s not like many Christians don’t still want to massacre or enslave the unbelievers. It’s not like America’s modern behavior doesn’t often have “war against the heathens” as one of its (typically unspoken, but obvious) motives. The difference between an Islamic dictatorship and America is that the religious fanatics have the power to do what they want; not that Christian fanatics are morally superior to Islamic fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/362 "2010-08-16T15:57:13Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Where is the connection between Communism and September 11? Where’s the connection between most of Islam and 9-11? By your logic every Christian should be treated as a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer because of the fighting between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/363 "2010-08-16T16:18:56Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > What years were the Crusades? What years were the Taliban, the attack on the USS Cole, September 11, the attack on Madrid trains, on London busses, the bloodbath in Mumbai, the incessant agressions on and refusal to tolerate Israel, etc. etc. Do you know that none of the things you mentioned above were done in the name of Islam? Please provide a cite that links Islam as the motive behind any of these attacks. By your logic, McVeigh was a Christian terrorist because he was raised as a Christian, actual motives be damned. ---
**Author:** ![basefifty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cdc98d/32.png) [@basefifty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/basefifty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/364 "2010-08-16T16:22:30Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > > [@basefifty](#): > > > > Communists are establishing their operations directly on the graves of the WTC victims. Where is the outrage? > > > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/nyregion/03tower.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/nyregion/03tower.html) > > Where is the connection between Communism and September 11? Well, Communists are evil. Also, those particular Communists are major trading partners with such evil Islamic nations as Iran and Pakistan. Now they’ll be literally sitting on the graves of the WTC victims. Shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/365 "2010-08-16T16:55:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > > [@Valteron](#): > > > > If someone said you were a bigot for disapproving of a statue of Fred Phelps in the Village, what would you say? > > You do realize that, despite your paranoid fantasies, this is not even close to being an analogous situation. The proper analogy for this situation is, would it be appropriate to open an Irish pub or a St. Patrick’s Catholic Church at Canary Wharf? Actually, wouldn’t a better analogy be “is it appropriate for the Daleks to build a friendship center somewhere in the general vicinity of Canary Wharf”?\* \*I would say no, because Daleks roam around killing people while shrieking “Exterminate, Exterminate”. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/366 "2010-08-16T17:01:47Z")
> [@ministryman](#): > > I used the term _Middle East_, when I should have said _Muslim Countries_, but AFAIAC, the two terms are synonymous. > > You cannot open a church in most Muslim countries. In fact, as one poster pointed out, you cannot even possess a Bible. Take a guess here: What country has the largest Muslim population? You win if you said “Indonesia.” More Muslims live in Nigeria than in Iran. Islam is not in any way synonymous with Arab or Middle Eastern. The vast majority of Muslims live outside of the Middle East, with 62% in Asia (did you know China has a significant Muslim population) and huge numbers of people in Africa. You can indeed open a church in most vast majority of Muslim dominated countries, and most of these countries have large and thriving Christian communities. Here is an interesting post about [churches in Muslim countries](http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1316974). I think the only places that banned churches were Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and (what you are probably thinking of) Saudi Arabia. Islam =/= Saudi Arabia, which at this point is way out of the mainstream. Judging Muslims because of what Saudi Arabia does is kind of like judging Japan by what North Korea does. Wikipedia is a good source to learn more about [the demographics of Islam.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/367 "2010-08-16T17:09:09Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Oh yes, I forgot. When the majority of New Yorkers and of Americans draw a different conclusion than the moderator on what is tasteless, they are fueled by “hysteria, overblown comparisons, lies and misstatements, . . . . (and) they are boobs”. Then those majorities of New Yorkers and Americans are stupid Yes, there is a line drawn, but there is another line, a wall even, when the the opinion is based on stupidity, fear, irrationality, and a basic misunderstanding of an entire group of people Newt Gingrich wants to know why churches aren’t allowed in Saudia Arabia? Maybe because a Christian nation (as he probably thinks America is) invaded mostly Arabic and Islamic nations twice in the last 20 years. Shit, I don’t like Islam any more than Christianity but I hope they never allow churches in those Islamic nations, just to piss off the Christians Idiots taking the poll don’t want the mosque there. You know why? Because they think 19 guys represent an entire religion as much as 1 Catholic pedophile represents another religion. Fuck them, they don’t get to have an opinion if it’s that stupid. The mosque near Ground Zero is fine, and if people get all uppity about it, then maybe someone should make a list of all the crimes Christians around the world did in the last 10 years and make sure to ban churches from the site of those crimes as well ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/368 "2010-08-16T17:10:55Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > [@jayjay](#): > > > > You do realize that, despite your paranoid fantasies, this is not even close to being an analogous situation. The proper analogy for this situation is, would it be appropriate to open an Irish pub or a St. Patrick’s Catholic Church at Canary Wharf? > > Actually, wouldn’t a better analogy be “is it appropriate for the Daleks to build a friendship center somewhere in the general vicinity of Canary Wharf”?\* No, because the Daleks did not destroy Canary Wharf. Now, the Slitheen building something on the site of No. 10 … > [@](#): > > \*I would say no, because Daleks roam around killing people while shrieking “Exterminate, Exterminate”. Well, that would be a good reason for denying any Daleks a visa to visit Earth. That would stop them in their tracks. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/369 "2010-08-16T17:12:22Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > The only difference is that when a large majority of Americans (and a majority of New Yorkers) indicate in a poll that they find the proposed mosque/Islamic centre so close to ground zero to be, in their opinion, offensive, you patronizingly and arrogantly dismiss them as ill-informed. We’re not calling people ill-informed for finding it offensive, we’re saying that many people find it offensive because they’re ill-informed. If they (and I’ll leave it to you to decide whether you’re included in “they”) continue to assert that the mosque is at Ground Zero, that the people involved have some connection to 9/11, that it’s some sort of thin end of the wedge in a greater plan of Islamic world domination… then yes, they’re ill-informed. Or deliberately shit-stirring. And since we’ve already established that the further one lives from Manhattan the greater the likelihood of opposition to the mosque is, I think an assumption of ignorance is generally supportable. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/370 "2010-08-16T17:24:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > I’m going to take some MAJOR fire/flaming for this BUT it is EXTREMELY bad taste to erect a mosque next to Ground Zero > > You’ve already taken criticism for this view because you’ve presented no logical argument whatsoever. Bad taste is letting angry and uninformed people decide how everyone else should behave regardless of logic or consistency. > > And two blocks away is not “next to.” That’s why people keep asking you if you just want to declare a Muslim free zone down there. If two blocks away is bad taste, why is four okay? Or ten? The WTC site is 16 acres. It’s _huge_. Do you realize how many other buildings are within two blocks of that site? [I’m looking at a map and I’m not sure how explain what a large area you’re talking about.](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=45+park+place+nyc&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=45+Park+Pl,+New+York,+NY+10007&gl=us&ei=2orvS_ubPIP7lwfw6520CA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ8gEwAA) The big empty gray square is the WTC site, and the ‘A’ marker is the site of the proposed mosque and community center on Park Place. Everything from a long stretch of Broadway and Fulton to maybe Murray could be considered as within two blocks (or in your version, “next to”). It goes without saying there are already churches in that area, including some well known ones, and plenty of department stores and other places of business that don’t have any particular grand meaning. > [@Marley23](#): > > **THE MOSQUE IS NOT ON GROUND ZERO**. Why are you unable to understand this point? Ground Zero (a term I never liked and try to avoid using) is the World Trade Center site. This building is _two blocks away_. I even linked to a map upthread. I chose these two previous posts to include the map and expand on this argument. For me, the argument _against_ said Mosque is without basis or fact, but merely on emotional grounds. Anyone familiar with the area knows that when you turn the corner onto W. Broadway, Broadway, or any other side street, you are basically in an entirely different location than the WTC site, based on the cavernous buildings that line each street. Preventing a mosque, church, synagogue, etc from opening outside the boundaries of the WTC site cannot be justified on the basis of any logical argument. That this has become political ammunition helps demonstrate the ridiculousness of the issue. If any person or group wants to prevent such a building from being erected, they should propose legislation through the system which allows such rules and regulations from being made into law. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/371 "2010-08-16T17:38:16Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > > Actually, wouldn’t a better analogy be “is it appropriate for the Daleks to build a friendship center somewhere in the general vicinity of Canary Wharf”?\* > > No, because the Daleks did not destroy Canary Wharf. > > Now, the Slitheen building something on the site of No. 10 … > > > [@](#): > > > > \*I would say no, because Daleks roam around killing people while shrieking “Exterminate, Exterminate”. > > Well, that would be a good reason for denying any Daleks a visa to visit Earth. > > That would stop them in their tracks. I’m pretty sure that the name Slitheen is on the no-fly list. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/372 "2010-08-16T17:41:30Z")
> [@ministryman](#): > > > [@jayjay](#): > > > > Who fucking CARES what they do in “the Middle East” (as if the whole region were a homogeneous cultural enclave)? This is AMERICA! Frankly, Saudi Arabia is the last nation I want to try to emulate in the arena of human rights. But it’s got a mighty attractive pull for our home-grown religious nuts, as long as the focus gets shifted from Islam to Christianity. > > You miss the point. > > I used the term _Middle East_, when I should have said _Muslim Countries_, but AFAIAC, the two terms are synonymous. > > You cannot open a church in most Muslim countries. In fact, as one poster pointed out, you cannot even possess a Bible. > > So for all of its “peace loving” claims, Islam is the most intolerant religion on the planet. Assuming this is true, why do you want to emulate them? Incidentally, people preach the word of God all over the Middle East. Everywhere you go. They even have public calls to prayer in some places. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/373 "2010-08-16T17:46:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > > > You know, I could have sworn this thread was about the building of a mosque in New York City. Apparently, I was mistaken, it’s actually supposed to be about how much **Valteron** hates muslims. > > _Everything_ is about how **Valteron** hates Muslims. Did you miss the last three threads in which **Valteron** totally lost his shit for absolutely no legitimate reason about Islam? He hates Christians too – remember the thread about him calling up the front desk at the hotel because he found “hate literature” (aka a Gideon Bible) in his hotel room? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/374 "2010-08-16T17:52:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Jihad seeks to conquer the whole world, not just the US This coming from a citizen of a country that has military base in almost every country in the world and spends on military as much as next ten countries combined. And then you are offended if you are called ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/375 "2010-08-16T18:29:56Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > > [@Valteron](#): > > > > Jihad seeks to conquer the whole world, not just the US > > This coming from a citizen of a country that has military base in almost every country in the world and spends on military as much as next ten countries combined. And then you are offended if you are called ignorant. Actually, IIRC, **Valteron** is Canadian. (Sorry, Canadians.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/376 "2010-08-16T18:31:36Z")
I’m sad to report that the stupid is winning. My parents, who are super-liberal though uncomfortable about Islam were all outraged at Obama speaking for the mosque. They were surprised when I told them that the mosque was not at ground zero- they were under the impression that it was directly facing ground zero. Once they learned the truth, they reevaluated their position. They were simply sucked in by all the discussion of “the ground zero mosque.” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/377 "2010-08-16T18:37:20Z")
On a blog where I am discussing this, I asked what an acceptable distance from Ground Zero would be and someone said “how about a mile?” Does anyone happen to know how many mosques are _already_ located within a mile of the WTC spot? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/378 "2010-08-16T18:40:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m sad to report that the stupid is winning. My parents, who are super-liberal though uncomfortable about Islam were all outraged at Obama speaking for the mosque. They were surprised when I told them that the mosque was not at ground zero- they were under the impression that it was directly facing ground zero. Once they learned the truth, they reevaluated their position. They were simply sucked in by all the discussion of “the ground zero mosque.” One of my aunts is a teabag dupe. She had the bad taste to start up about the “Ground Zero Mosque” (and how Obama doesn’t care because he’s a Muslim, too) this past weekend when the family was gathered in the ICU waiting room waiting on news about my mom. I really wasn’t in the mood to try to correct her right then so I walked out to go back to see mom. (She’s my aunt by marriage…I claim no shared DNA) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/379 "2010-08-16T18:42:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They were surprised when I told them that the mosque was not at ground zero- they were under the impression that it was directly facing ground zero. Once they learned the truth, they reevaluated their position. They were simply sucked in by all the discussion of “the ground zero mosque.” Politicians get what they want by lying. Film at 11. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/380 "2010-08-16T18:48:30Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > > [@Valteron](#): > > > > And do you believe Muslim Americans of good will should take the opinions of the vast majority of Americans into account (including those of President Obama)? > > No, I don’t. I think they should exercise their rights to own and use property for the practice of their religion and to serve their community needs like everyone else. Exactly. And, Valteron, in case you’ve missed it (which you certainly have–time after time after time), that is wisdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=20)