# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/441 "2010-08-18T18:26:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t worry. Next week we can talk about the Cathedral of the Holy Cross Daycare and how insensitive it was to put it right next to all those priests. “Foolhardy” would be the term. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/442 "2010-08-18T20:49:36Z")
Conservative should take heart from the fact that there probably won’t be any gay marriages performed there. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/443 "2010-08-18T21:21:00Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There’s quite a lot of ignorance being spread in this thread. Yup. And you’re helping. To wit: > [@newcomer](#): > > a country that has military base in almost every country in the world > [@IRT](#): > > The United States has many military bases in places where they don’t belong, **but it’s not true to say** we have a base in “almost every country in the world”. – bolding mine. 'tis indeed: [**The U.S. Global Empire**](http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance8.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*The extent of the U.S. global empire is almost incalculable. The latest “Base Structure Report” of the Department of Defense states that the Department’s physical assets consist of “more than 600,000 individual buildings and structures, at more than 6,000 locations, on more than 30 million acres.” The exact number of locations is then given as 6,702 – divided into large installations (115), medium installations (115), and small installations/locations (6,472). This classification can be deceiving, however, because installations are only classified as small if they have a Plant Replacement Value (PRV) of less than $800 million. > > Although most of these locations are in the continental United States, 96 of them are in U.S. territories around the globe, and 702 of them are in foreign countries. But as Chalmers Johnson has documented, the figure of 702 foreign military installations is too low, for it does not include installations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Kosovo, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and Uzbekistan. Johnson estimates that an honest count would be closer to 1,000. > > The number of countries that the United States has a presence in is staggering. _According the U.S. Department of State’s list of “Independent States in the World,” there are 192 countries in the world, all of which, except Bhutan, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea, have diplomatic relations with the United States. All of these countries except one (Vatican City) are members of the United Nations. According to the Department of Defense publication, “Active Duty Military Personnel Strengths by Regional Area and by Country,” the United States has troops in 135 countries._ Here is the list:…\*\* – Highlights mine. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/444 "2010-08-18T21:54:55Z")
That list from [lewrockwell.com](http://lewrockwell.com) almost certainly includes security personnel at US embassies. China, Russia, and N. Korea are all on that list. You can’t possibly be claiming that the US has a military base in N. Korea. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/445 "2010-08-18T22:14:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > That list from [lewrockwell.com](http://lewrockwell.com) almost certainly includes security personnel at US embassies. China, Russia, and N. Korea are all on that list. You can’t possibly be claiming that the US has a military base in N. Korea. I claim nothing. Stats do. Here’s another source. Plenty more to be found. [**As of March 31, 2008, U.S. armed forces were stationed at more than 820 installations in at least 135 countries.**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces#Overseas) ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/446 "2010-08-18T22:21:44Z")
“Soldiers” does not equal a military base. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/447 "2010-08-18T22:24:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I claim nothing. Stats do. Here’s another source. Plenty more to be found. > > [**As of March 31, 2008, U.S. armed forces were stationed at more than 820 installations in at least 135 countries.**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces#Overseas) The majority of those are single or double digits, too small to be a base. It’s misleading to keep referring to them as “installations” without defining the term. Liaison officers do not an occupying force make. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/448 "2010-08-18T22:36:13Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I claim nothing. Stats do. Here’s another source. Plenty more to be found. You’re claiming that your cite proves that we have bases in a majority of countries in the world. Your cite does nothing of the kind because it lists N. Korea as a country with US soldiers and under no definition do we have a base in NK. Your cite is meaningless regarding bases. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/449 "2010-08-18T22:50:28Z")
Yes. Let’s stop misleading people about America’s military bases and get back to the topic at hand: the Victory Mosque[sup]TM[/sup] that the godless Islamo-fascists want to erect right on top of Ground Zero. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/450 "2010-08-18T23:01:09Z")
**TWEEEET!** As a minor hijack, the dispute over the U.S. overseas military extension was mildly irritating. As a major hijack, it is over. Anyone wishing to continue that fight, take it to a different thread. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/451 "2010-08-19T07:17:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The Imam said that the US has done things in the past that have pissed off Muslims. Do you deny that this is true? Everything pisses off Muslims. A cartoon turns into deadly riots. A book turns into a death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/452 "2010-08-19T07:29:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Given that the U.S. has been meddling in Muslim nations, (often to the detriment of Islam), for decades, supporting dictators who have suppressed Islam in Iran, Indonesia, the Philipines, and other locations… So unless the United States backs up the most egregiously backward versions of Islam, it’s anti-muslim? How did it work out for Iranians with the new regime? The only thing suppressed by the Shaw was the misogyny that defines current leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/453 "2010-08-19T07:43:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > The Imam said that the US has done things in the past that have pissed off Muslims. Do you deny that this is true? > > Everything pisses off Muslims. A cartoon turns into deadly riots. A book turns into a death sentence. And amazingly enough so does being bombed, or tortured, or being invaded and/or tyrannized by a US backed regime. Like it or not, there are millions of Muslims who have perfectly good reasons to be angry at the US. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Given that the U.S. has been meddling in Muslim nations, (often to the detriment of Islam), for decades, supporting dictators who have suppressed Islam in Iran, Indonesia, the Philipines, and other locations… > > So unless the United States backs up the most egregiously backward versions of Islam, it’s anti-muslim? How did it work out for Iranians with the new regime? The only thing suppressed by the Shaw was the misogyny that defines current leadership. He also suppressed democracy and political dissent - that was one of the reasons we put him in there. And it was our installation of the Shah that eventually led to the revolution that let the Islamic theocrats into power. Without our overthrow of their democracy it’s entirely possible that would never have happened. But then, America has always been the enemy of democracy despite all of its noble sounding propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/454 "2010-08-19T08:02:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Wafa Sultan is not a reliable voice regarding Islam. . You’re the one backing Imam Rauf’s assertion that US policies were an accessory to the event of 9/11. If Muslims feel that they have been wronged then Dr Sultan is accurate in her assertion the new mosque will be viewed as a symbolic victory. As a Muslim and trained Psychiatrist who lived in Syria she is infinitely more qualified than you are to explain how Muslims feel. Absent a reasoned response you simply attacked her credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/455 "2010-08-19T08:05:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He also suppressed democracy and political dissent - that was one of the reasons we put him in there. the only thing he suppressed were the zealots currently tormenting Iranians. The CURRENT government screens potential political candidates for religious purity before they are allowed on a ballot. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/456 "2010-08-19T08:59:29Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > > > I found this CNN video hilarious… [http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/08/15/nr.islamic.center.debate.cnn?hpt=Sbin](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/08/15/nr.islamic.center.debate.cnn?hpt=Sbin) > > > > Don Lemon simply undresses Tim Brown, a retired NY firefighter and WTC survivor. By the end, he’s babbling. > > Certainly not my impression from watching the video. > > Whilst I don’t agree with the fireman I think he presented his case in a calm and dignified manner and without being unnecessarily offensive to anyone. > > I think people so directly involved with such a tragedy should be cut a little slack if their opinions are somewhat more concentrated than others. If anything, the other guy took someone saying that someone who has, according to him, supported 9/11, is in poor taste to develop building, and that the controversy is antithetical to the stated goal, and tried to paint him as a racist. The fact that he’s a 9/11 survivor is just icing. The point is that the guy was an asshole, and thus the exact opposite of what Muslims need to convince people that they are truly a religion of peace. Such a person would be seen a threadshitter here, if not a troll. He was gunning for a reaction, while the other guy, while he used a bit of emotional rhetoric, at least was good enough not to try to insult anyone. Just because the Muslim guy was meaner than the firefighter doesn’t mean he won–in fact, quite the opposite. And this is coming from a guy who would think building a mosque right at ground zero would be the ultimate “fuck you” to Islamic terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/457 "2010-08-19T09:03:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Everything pisses off Muslims. A cartoon turns into deadly riots. A book turns into a death sentence. > > And amazingly enough so does being bombed, or tortured, or being invaded and/or tyrannized by a US backed regime. Like it or not, there are millions of Muslims who have perfectly good reasons to be angry at the US. So? There are also millions of Muslims who are angry at the U.S. for completely stupid reasons. This is inevitable when religion and politics get intertwined, or when when someone _wants_ to get them intertwined. A trivial political sleight isn’t somebody criticism your system of government - it’s them profaning your religious beliefs! There’s no easier way for dictators and wannabe dictators to get the stupid to play along then by accusing some outsider of slamming their religion. In the U.S., people who would like to make Christianity the official religion (as Islam is the official religion in many countries) bleat about some specious “war on Christmas” and the idiots bleat right back. Sure, you’ve got lots of Muslims pissed about wedding parties getting massacred by U.S. bombs, but you’ve also got lots of Muslims getting pissed because somebody drew a cartoon. If they’re not going to be selective about what they’re pissed about… fuck 'em! Let them be pissed. You can’t stop it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/458 "2010-08-19T09:26:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If they’re not going to be selective about what they’re pissed about… fuck 'em! Let them be pissed. You can’t stop it anyway. And here we see the genesis of 9-11. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/459 "2010-08-19T09:26:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > He also suppressed democracy and political dissent - that was one of the reasons we put him in there. > > the only thing he suppressed were the zealots currently tormenting Iranians. Oh, garbage. The Shah’s SAVAK was quite notorious for tormenting Iranians; we even trained them in torture techniques. And the whole reason we forced the Shah on them was so he would oppress them in our interest. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And amazingly enough so does being bombed, or tortured, or being invaded and/or tyrannized by a US backed regime. Like it or not, there are millions of Muslims who have perfectly good reasons to be angry at the US. > > So? There are also millions of Muslims who are angry at the U.S. for completely stupid reasons. This is inevitable when religion and politics get intertwined, or when when someone _wants_ to get them intertwined. A trivial political sleight isn’t somebody criticism your system of government - it’s them profaning your religious beliefs! There’s no easier way for dictators and wannabe dictators to get the stupid to play along then by accusing some outsider of slamming their religion. In the U.S., people who would like to make Christianity the official religion (as Islam is the official religion in many countries) bleat about some specious “war on Christmas” and the idiots bleat right back. > > Sure, you’ve got lots of Muslims pissed about wedding parties getting massacred by U.S. bombs, but you’ve also got lots of Muslims getting pissed because somebody drew a cartoon. If they’re not going to be selective about what they’re pissed about… fuck 'em! Let them be pissed. You can’t stop it anyway. The rather obvious flaw in your argument is assuming that those are all the same people. Even the most tolerant Muslim is going to be angry when you murder his friends and family. It’s also classic dehumanization - it’s a call to go ahead and massacre them and torture them, it doesn’t make any difference. It’s also factually incorrect; for example, after our invasion of Iraq we ended up fighting foreign radicals who had not been radical before we invaded. But I suppose it’s easier to pretend that they are all demons who hate us for no particular reason. You know; when a man who openly despises all religion as stupid and evil tells you that you are being prejudiced towards the followers of a religion, perhaps you should listen. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/460 "2010-08-19T09:35:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You know; when a man who openly despises all religion as stupid and evil tells you that you are being prejudiced towards the followers of a religion, perhaps you should listen. Ah, but do you hate the United States more than you hate Islam? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=24)