# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/461 "2010-08-19T09:37:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The rather obvious flaw in your argument is assuming that those are all the same people. Yeah, it’s kinda like blaming all Americans for something, or all Christians for something, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > You know; when a man who openly despises all religion as stupid and evil tells you that you are being prejudiced towards the followers of a religion, perhaps you should listen. There’s nothing unusual about your views on religion, nor have I seen you cover any ground I haven’t long-ago explored on my own. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/462 "2010-08-19T09:47:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > The Imam said that the US has done things in the past that have pissed off Muslims. Do you deny that this is true? > > Everything pisses off Muslims. A cartoon turns into deadly riots. A book turns into a death sentence. Ooh…keep waving those hands - the breeze is nice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/463 "2010-08-19T09:57:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There’s nothing unusual about your views on religion, nor have I seen you cover any ground I haven’t long-ago explored on my own. You apparently weren’t paying attention while you explored it however. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/464 "2010-08-19T10:01:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > The rather obvious flaw in your argument is assuming that those are all the same people. > > Yeah, it’s kinda like blaming all Americans for something, or all Christians for something, isn’t it? Which, one presumes, you would agree is asinine. And yet you seemed quite happy to do it to the Muslims. 😕 > [@](#): > > You know; when a man who openly despises all religion as stupid and evil tells you that you are being prejudiced towards the followers of a religion, perhaps you should listen. There’s nothing unusual about your views on religion, nor have I seen you cover any ground I haven’t long-ago explored on my own. [/QUOTE] He wasn’t claiming exclusivity and the fact that an idea has been explored before does not in any way make it invalid. You seem to be agreeing with things that argue for a stance opposite that which you are taking. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/465 "2010-08-19T10:03:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > There’s nothing unusual about your views on religion, nor have I seen you cover any ground I haven’t long-ago explored on my own. > > You apparently weren’t paying attention while you explored it however. Then apparently you’ve made at least one invalid assumption about me. And apparently me saying this will prompt you to say something else along similar lines, and apparently this’ll give me an opening to say something along similar lines, et cetera and so forth. In an effort to cut to the chase, you tried to claim an authority that find neither impressive nor unique, and have no incentive to give any special weight. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/466 "2010-08-19T10:13:56Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Yeah, it’s kinda like blaming all Americans for something, or all Christians for something, isn’t it? > > Which, one presumes, you would agree is asinine. Well, it’s asinine when _he_ does it. Heh. In a more generalized sense, my observation is that the quite justifiable complaints are unfortunately mingled in with complaints that are clearly _not_ justifiable. It is not only Muslim states that help this along, but indeed any state inextricably linked to an official religion, because religion gives _all_ complaints weight to followers of that religion, and a leadership eager to maintain power is all too happy to get its citizens to complain about outsiders in an effort to deflect complaints about itself. The exact religion doesn’t much matter. Heck, it could be devotion and reverence for the scripture of Marx. I’m unclear what difference it makes if Al-Qaida attacked because of U.S. troops in Muslim nations, or Israel/Palestine, or Salman Rushdie… so with some of these motivations, the U.S. deserved it and with some they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/467 "2010-08-19T10:14:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > You apparently weren’t paying attention while you explored it however. > > Then apparently you’ve made at least one invalid assumption about me. And apparently me saying this will prompt you to say something else along similar lines, and apparently this’ll give me an opening to say something along similar lines, et cetera and so forth. In an effort to cut to the chase, you tried to claim an authority that find neither impressive nor unique, and have no incentive to give any special weight. Instead of all these vague attempts at ‘point scoring’ why not actually say what’s on your mind? What is the assumption? What is wrong with it? Which facts? Which authority? What did you disagree with when you ‘explored on your own’? ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/468 "2010-08-19T10:16:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@qpw3141](#): > > > > Which, one presumes, you would agree is asinine. > > Well, it’s asinine when _he_ does it. Heh. > > In a more generalized sense, my observation is that the quite justifiable complaints are unfortunately mingled in with complaints that are clearly _not_ justifiable. It is not only Muslim states that help this along, but indeed any state inextricably linked to an official religion, because religion gives _all_ complaints weight to followers of that religion, and a leadership eager to maintain power is all too happy to get its citizens to complain about outsiders in an effort to deflect complaints about itself. The exact religion doesn’t much matter. Heck, it could be devotion and reverence for the scripture of Marx. The religion in the US, presumably, being money or, perhaps, capitalism? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/469 "2010-08-19T10:21:53Z")
Cutting to the chase again… > [@qpw3141](#): > > What did you disagree with when you ‘explored on your own’? Nothing. He and I have, as far I know, near-identical views on religion. I just object to the presumptuousness that he has some insight on this issue that I lack, and thus I should listen to him with something approaching reverence. Anything beyond that runs the risk of getting more personal than a GD thread needs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/470 "2010-08-19T10:31:36Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > The religion in the US, presumably, being money or, perhaps, capitalism? Or, perhaps more simply, Christianity and the not-inconsiderable efforts by a not-insignificant chunk of the population to make it the official religion. Capitalism doesn’t quite fit, in the sense that it doesn’t inherently require adherents to ignore huge chunks of reality, though I’m sure some can convincingly argue otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/471 "2010-08-19T11:31:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > He also suppressed democracy and political dissent - that was one of the reasons we put him in there. > > the only thing he suppressed were the zealots currently tormenting Iranians. This is false. The Shah suppressed a lot of Muslim rights, even prohibiting the wearing of the _hijab_, (not the body covering _chedor_ or sack-like _burqa_, but the simple head scarf). It was that sort of brutal intolerance that gave Khomeini the wedge to come back in with his own variety of brutality. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Wafa Sultan is not a reliable voice regarding Islam. . > > You’re the one backing Imam Rauf’s assertion that US policies were an accessory to the event of 9/11. If Muslims feel that they have been wronged then Dr Sultan is accurate in her assertion the new mosque will be viewed as a symbolic victory. As a Muslim and trained Psychiatrist who lived in Syria she is infinitely more qualified than you are to explain how Muslims feel. Absent a reasoned response you simply attacked her credibility. True. I attacked her credibility. We went through this dance with Valteron, earlier. Sultan has made numerous claims about what “Islam” does that are based strictly on her experience in Syria, encountering a Wahabbist organization. She has extrapolated those beliefs, to all of Islam in a way that Imam Rauf’s very existence belies. (She also has a record of making claims about her own experience appear to be contradicted by facts. For example, she claims to have been a witness to the assassination of one of her moderate Muslim professors, (even though she also denies that there can be moderates), but she was not even at the location where he was assassinated.) I would not challenge her credentials to talk about Islam as it was practiced in Syria in the 1970s, but her broader comments are in direct conflict with facts in regards to Islam as it is practiced in Turkey, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Europe, and North America. As to the “victory,” if the haters had not made a point of pretending that all Islam was identical and throwing up the lies that Imam Rauf was some sort of Wahabbist, the community center would have gone in with no protests and there would be nothing to “celebrate.” Allowing a religious group to build a community center that is not even within sight of the WTC location is not going to give any Islamists something to crow about. It will simply be a building that provides a place for opponents of zealots to spread their message of cooperation and mutual understanding. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/472 "2010-08-19T12:33:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As to the “victory,” if the haters had not made a point of pretending that all Islam was identical and throwing up the lies that Imam Rauf was some sort of Wahabbist, the community center would have gone in with no protests and there would be nothing to “celebrate.” Allowing a religious group to build a community center that is not even within sight of the WTC location is not going to give any Islamists something to crow about. It will simply be a building that provides a place for opponents of zealots to spread their message of cooperation and mutual understanding. Yes, it’s ironic in the extreme that if it wasn’t for the zealots the Mosque would have been built and there would have been no question of it representing any kind of victory for anyone. Thanks to their intervention there will, no doubt, be people who will see it as a victory when it is built. On the plus side, for every extremist who might see it as some sort of very minor victory for whatever it is they support there will be a hundred who will see it as a victory for the very best principles upon which the US was founded. And, of course, a victory for freedom and common sense over mindless intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/473 "2010-08-19T14:30:30Z")
No one in his right mind should say that Muslims have no right to build their mosque anywhere they please. However, building that mosque so near the 9-11 ruins is foolhardy to say the least and those accusing people of bigotry for pointing that out are hypocrites. Let’s say the US bombed a historical landmark in Saudi Arabia or any ME country and Pastor Hagee decides to build a cathedral (oh, sorry - community center) near it, would these same people be as charitable to Pastor Hagee as they are to the imam in NY? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/474 "2010-08-19T14:50:54Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > No one in his right mind should say that Muslims have no right to build their mosque anywhere they please. However, building that mosque so near the 9-11 ruins is foolhardy to say the least and those accusing people of bigotry for pointing that out are hypocrites. Let’s say the US bombed a historical landmark in Saudi Arabia or any ME country and Pastor Hagee decides to build a cathedral (oh, sorry - community center) near it, would these same people be as charitable to Pastor Hagee as they are to the imam in NY? The last I checked, the US was not a Christian group. Analogy FAIL. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/475 "2010-08-19T14:54:04Z")
And, Saudi Arabia is not America. Double fail. ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/476 "2010-08-19T14:59:31Z")
Islam is part of the battleground against terrorism, not the enemy. It is not monolithic, just like Christianity is not monolithic. Triple fail, with salchow. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/477 "2010-08-19T15:10:03Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I haven’t read my way through all the pages of this thread. > > My opinion is that the mosque should go ahead and no obstructions be put in the way of its construction. > > The people who were responsible for 9/11 are in no way representative of Muslims as a whole, anymore then the American whacko who celebrates U.S. servicemen being killed is representative of Christianity or people in the West. > > We are fighting for, amongst other things religious tolerance. > > Intolerance makes you as bad as any Taliban. I think that already goes without saying. It would be a futile and unconstitutional for government to try to stop it. Slowly but surely, they are making us more like them. Who’s winning this war anyways. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/478 "2010-08-19T15:12:19Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > No one in his right mind should say that Muslims have no right to build their mosque anywhere they please. However, building that mosque so near the 9-11 ruins is foolhardy to say the least and those accusing people of bigotry for pointing that out are hypocrites. So they can build it anywhere they please provided no one objects to them building it there? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/479 "2010-08-19T15:59:12Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > No one in his right mind should say that Muslims have no right to build their mosque anywhere they please. However, building that mosque so near the 9-11 ruins is foolhardy to say the least and those accusing people of bigotry for pointing that out are hypocrites. > > So they can build it anywhere they please provided no one objects to them building it there? 😕 Yes. Just like blacks can sit anywhere they like on the bus, provided no one objects to them sitting in the front half. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/480 "2010-08-19T16:55:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > You apparently weren’t paying attention while you explored it however. > > Then apparently you’ve made at least one invalid assumption about me. I don’t need to make any assumptions; I just need to read this thread, where you refuse to treat Muslims like humans. Humans who respond to positive and negative stimuli, who aren’t all clones of each other. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In an effort to cut to the chase, you tried to claim an authority that find neither impressive nor unique, and have no incentive to give any special weight. I didn’t claim any “authority”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=25)