# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/561 "2010-08-22T13:46:37Z")
[http://beforeitsnews.com/story/135/262/California\_Mosque\_Protest:\_Protesters\_Call\_for\_No\_More\_Mosques\_in\_America.html](http://beforeitsnews.com/story/135/262/California_Mosque_Protest:_Protesters_Call_for_No_More_Mosques_in_America.html) It not just at Ground 2. There are protests in several areas across the country. It is not about sensitivity. It is religious distrust and hatred. It is bigotry. The haters are looking for excuses and The NYC community center gave the haters an opening. They were constructing a community center. That is all. Now it is a problem anyplace in right wing .Palin, Limbaugh, Fox type America. The lack of sensitivity is not on the Muslim part. It is on the part Americans play in religious hatred using the NYC community center as an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/562 "2010-08-22T13:48:42Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Has anyone seen estimates of how many votes this little brouhaha will net Republican candidates come november? > They just can’t get enough of that base stirring, can they? Well one candidate in NY got shit from the police and fire depts for using 9/11 images in an add about Park 51 Here in TN there were protests about a Mosque being built Murfreesboro and two GOP candidates used it in ads. Both lost. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/563 "2010-08-22T14:04:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://beforeitsnews.com/story/135/262/California\_Mosque\_Protest:\_Protesters\_Call\_for\_No\_More\_Mosques\_in\_America.html](http://beforeitsnews.com/story/135/262/California_Mosque_Protest:_Protesters_Call_for_No_More_Mosques_in_America.html) It not just at Ground 2. There are protests in several areas across the country. It is not about sensitivity. It is religious distrust and hatred. It is bigotry. The haters are looking for excuses and The NYC community center gave the haters an opening. They were constructing a community center. That is all. Now it is a problem anyplace in right wing .Palin, Limbaugh, Fox type America. The lack of sensitivity is not on the Muslim part. It is on the part Americans play in religious hatred using the NYC community center as an excuse. How is it that people who claim to be patriots and love thier country can so easily ignore foundational principles. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/564 "2010-08-22T15:31:19Z")
It is not about NYC Ground two area. They are protesting mosque building in Temecula, Calif, Florence ,KY.and , Mulfreesboro, Tenn. They are not at ground anything. They are Muslims. This is about religious intolerance and hatred. It has a spirit of revenge too. It is a fine appeal to the lowest levels of man. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/565 "2010-08-22T16:15:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > And? Simply pointing out that a group believes on thing is not guarantee that they will believe a subset of that overall opinion. > > The people I quoted live or lived in the region. They are closer to the mentality that spawned 9/11. Osama Bin Laden and those with his mindset still exist. They are not a small group of people and they are not all hiding in caves. I’m not entirely sure what your post is going on about, here. You seem to have turned my disagreement that Muslims in the region are necessarily good judges of these things into a disagrement that there are radical Muslims at all, that there is a threat at all. It is quite possible to disagree with some minor point while agreeing with some overall one. I have no doubt that there is a threat, and that there are radical Muslims who wish to do us harm. That doesn’t mean that I must agree with every single person who talks about them, nor that I must take anyone who is nominally on our side as excellent judges who are above reproach in their reading of the situation. No more than it would be accurate to call your behaviour politically correct because you refuse to agree with my understanding of the threat. My point still stands. If it will be seen as a victory monument, it is because it is being treated as a defeat to have it there. When someone wishes to hurt you, you do not show them your wounds; it only encourages them. If you want to stop terrorism, you must show that it has no lasting effect. Things like this not only make us look vulnerable and weak, by lashing out so blindly we give support to ideas that the US\* is\* simply against all Muslims. When Abu Hamza talks about how terrible and threatening we are, how we will never accept them, he can be speaking, in part, from truths. This kind of thing gives him and those like him ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/566 "2010-08-22T16:35:35Z")
The press in the middle east will be that we are anti-Muslim and are at war against the Muslim religion. These protests are fuel for the middle east haters, provided by American haters. No good can come from preventing the community center. Much harm can be caused by stopping it. Lets pretend we in America do believe in religious freedom. Apparently we don’t, but lets at least pretend. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/567 "2010-08-22T16:48:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The press in the middle east will be that we are anti-Muslim and are at war against the Muslim religion. These protests are fuel for the middle east haters, provided by American haters. No good can come from preventing the community center. Much harm can be caused by stopping it. Lets pretend we in America do believe in religious freedom. Apparently we don’t, but lets at least pretend. I think this is an important point. Those who fear that the mosque would represent a victory for the terrorists should more fear the recruiting power of religious persecution. There is no answer without risk, only the degree. Religious persecution is worse. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/568 "2010-08-22T17:37:15Z")
First, let me say how I hate it when I forget to copy and lose a post I spent some time on. Dam It! I just read an [article about Imam Ruaf](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/nyregion/22imam.html) It’s paints a picture of a man long dedicated toward peace and trying to build a bridge between Islam and the west. > [@](#): > > He consistently denounces violence. Some of his views on the interplay between terrorism and American foreign policy — or his search for commonalities between Islamic law and this country’s Constitution — have proved jarring to some American ears, but still place him as pro-American within the Muslim world. He devotes himself to befriending Christians and Jews — so much, some Muslim Americans say, that he has lost touch with their own concerns. > > “To stereotype him as an extremist is just nuts,” said the Very Rev. James P. Morton, the longtime dean of the Church of St. John the Divine, in Manhattan, who has known the family for decades. > [@](#): > > After 9/11, Mr. Abdul Rauf was all over the airwaves denouncing terrorism, urging Muslims to confront its presence among them, and saying that killing civilians violated Islam. He wrote a book, “What’s Right With Islam Is What’s Right With America,” asserting the congruence of American democracy and Islam. > [@](#): > > Those opponents repeat often that Mr. Abdul Rauf, in one radio interview, refused to describe the Palestinian group that pioneered suicide bombings against Israel, Hamas, as a terrorist organization. In the lengthy interview, Mr. Abdul Rauf clumsily tries to say that people around the globe define terrorism differently and labeling any group would sap his ability to build bridges. He also says: “Targeting civilians is wrong. It is a sin in our religion,” and, “I am a supporter of the state of Israel.” There’s also a link to an earlier article about Park 51 from Dec 8, 2009 > [@](#): > > The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” > > “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61. This man is not the enemy within. If there are people in this issue that deserve that title it’s the liars and fear mongers who are willing to distort the truth to serve their own selfish ends regardless of how it hurts innocent people or our soceity. This Imam and his project is one we should be supporting and celebrating in hopes to bring peace to future generations of Americans and the Muslims of the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/569 "2010-08-22T17:48:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think this is an important point. Those who fear that the mosque would represent a victory for the terrorists should more fear the recruiting power of religious persecution. There is no answer without risk, only the degree. Religious persecution is worse. You succinctly echo a sentiment I tried to express earlier. In fact if you learn the intended purpose of the Community Center as a bridge between cultures and religions and a tool to promote peace , then it doesn’t matter if radical Islamics see it as a monument because the activities will be dedicated against their goals.Only the ignorant both there and here will see this as some kind of monument to terrorist victory. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/570 "2010-08-22T17:48:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > If there is an attack against the US that is directly tied to this community center (which is incredibly unlikely) would any of the pro-center Dopers change their viewpoint? > > Comon man, think. What the hell makes you think this center is any more likley to harbor the source of a terrorist attack than any other location? You didn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/571 "2010-08-22T17:56:42Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > You didn’t answer the question. If pigs fly out my ass tomorrow at noon, will Regina still be the capital of Saskatchewan? I’ll give you five seconds, and then I’ll say “you didn’t answer the question.” Seriously, pestering us with a ridiculous hypotheical will get you nowhere. An attack is just as likely to be hatched in the strip club across the street – hell, I’d say _more_ likely, given the nightly activities of the 9/11 terrorists as they were taking their flying lessons. So, your hypothetical has no bearing on the many pros and cons of building the community center there. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/572 "2010-08-22T17:59:57Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > You didn’t answer the question. > > If pigs fly out my ass tomorrow at noon, will Regina still be the capital of Saskatchewan? > > I’ll give you five seconds, and then I’ll say “you didn’t answer the question.” > > Seriously, pestering us with a ridiculous hypotheical will get you nowhere. An attack is just as likely to be hatched in the strip club across the street – hell, I’d say _more_ likely, given the nightly activities of the 9/11 terrorists as they were taking their flying lessons. > > So, your hypothetical has no bearing on the many pros and cons of building the community center there. You didn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/573 "2010-08-22T18:06:18Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@JKellyMap](#): > > > > If pigs fly out my ass tomorrow at noon, will Regina still be the capital of Saskatchewan? > > > > I’ll give you five seconds, and then I’ll say “you didn’t answer the question.” > > > > Seriously, pestering us with a ridiculous hypotheical will get you nowhere. An attack is just as likely to be hatched in the strip club across the street – hell, I’d say _more_ likely, given the nightly activities of the 9/11 terrorists as they were taking their flying lessons. > > > > So, your hypothetical has no bearing on the many pros and cons of building the community center there. > > You didn’t answer the question. Okay, fine, just to make you happy (this is GD, after all, and not the Pit). The answer is “no”. (This reminds me a little of when Michael Dukakis was asked in an interview, during his 1988 presidential bid, how he would feel if his wife were raped. Many later thought he should have responded to the questioner with an indignant “How dare you!”, and moved the conversation back to the issues.) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/574 "2010-08-22T18:08:10Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > You didn’t answer the question. > > Okay, fine, just to make you happy (this is GD, after all, and not the Pit). > > The answer is “no”. > > (This reminds me a little of when Michael Dukakis was asked in an interview, during his 1988 presidential bid, how he would feel if his wife were raped. Many later thought he should have responded to the questioner with an indignant “How dare you!”, and moved the conversation back to the issues.) Thanks for the answer **JKellyMap**. For the record I have no use for religion, wars sprung from it, and utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/575 "2010-08-22T18:09:44Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > If there is an attack against the US that is directly tied to this community center (which is incredibly unlikely) would any of the pro-center Dopers change their viewpoint? I’m pretty sure it would. But they would be wrong to make that change. If there is another attack it will have to be planned somewhere. If the mosque is built it could be planned in the mosque or it could be planned elsewhere. If the mosque isn’t built it would be planned elsewhere. It’s actually completely irrelevant. If the putative terrorists had a sense of humour they could plan in a Christian Cathedral - or a synagogue. Are you going to get rid of everywhere in case someone plans an attack there? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/576 "2010-08-22T18:16:11Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > If there is an attack against the US that is directly tied to this community center (which is incredibly unlikely) would any of the pro-center Dopers change their viewpoint? > > I’m pretty sure it would. > > But they would be wrong to make that change. > > If there is another attack it will have to be planned somewhere. If the mosque is built it could be planned in the mosque or it could be planned elsewhere. If the mosque isn’t built it would be planned elsewhere. It’s actually completely irrelevant. > > If the putative terrorists had a sense of humour they could plan in a Christian Cathedral - or a synagogue. > > Are you going to get rid of everywhere in case someone plans an attack there? I agree with what you’re saying. However, it would be pretty god damned symbolic if an attack originated from there, no? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/577 "2010-08-22T18:17:40Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > Thanks for the answer **JKellyMap**. For the record I have no use for religion, wars sprung from it, and utter nonsense. I’m with you on that one, bro. (Got my Hitchens _God is Not Great_ front and center on the living room bookshelf.) But it’s going to take many generations for our species to shed its pink unicorn delusions. Meanwhile, let’s try to remain rational about who really is a threat, and what we can do to minimize that threat. Maintaining our nation’s standing as a (relative) beacon of tolerance and diversity is surely, statistically speaking, a better way to do that, especially compared to the zero evidence that this community center would be any more likely to serve as a terrorist-plot-hatching locale than just about any locale you can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/578 "2010-08-22T18:18:21Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@qpw3141](#): > > > > I’m pretty sure it would. > > > > But they would be wrong to make that change. > > > > If there is another attack it will have to be planned somewhere. If the mosque is built it could be planned in the mosque or it could be planned elsewhere. If the mosque isn’t built it would be planned elsewhere. It’s actually completely irrelevant. > > > > If the putative terrorists had a sense of humour they could plan in a Christian Cathedral - or a synagogue. > > > > Are you going to get rid of everywhere in case someone plans an attack there? > > I agree with what you’re saying. However, it would be pretty god damned symbolic if an attack originated from there, no? If one were inclined to grasp at symbols instead facts and common sense, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/579 "2010-08-22T18:22:09Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@qpw3141](#): > > > > I’m pretty sure it would. > > > > But they would be wrong to make that change. > > > > If there is another attack it will have to be planned somewhere. If the mosque is built it could be planned in the mosque or it could be planned elsewhere. If the mosque isn’t built it would be planned elsewhere. It’s actually completely irrelevant. > > > > If the putative terrorists had a sense of humour they could plan in a Christian Cathedral - or a synagogue. > > > > Are you going to get rid of everywhere in case someone plans an attack there? > > I agree with what you’re saying. However, it would be pretty god damned symbolic if an attack originated from there, no? Okay, now it’s clear – you were just bringing up a small and only tangentially relevant point – the mildly (and arguably) ironic implications of an extremely unlikely event. As if you were dreaming up the plot of some near-future action movie, to star Will Smith. Okay. It’s a small thing, and probably didn’t merit your insistence that we “answer the question”. Okay, back to the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/580 "2010-08-22T18:22:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > I agree with what you’re saying. However, it would be pretty god damned symbolic if an attack originated from there, no? > > If one were inclined to grasp at symbols instead facts and common sense, I suppose. **Czarcasm** , you’re right. It’s a supposition that bears a tin-foil hat. I was just poking the Dopers to to see where they’re at. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=30)