# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/41 "2010-05-14T20:35:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What better way to rub the noses of the Islamo-fascists in the fact that we are the USA, not Saudi Arabia? > > We have freedom of religion in this country. The terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and continue to do so don’t like that. This will demonstrate that they failed to affect our freedoms. > > Good. I totally agree with every word of **Shodan** ’s post (and how often do I get to say THAT?!? 😛 ). An additional benefit is that we also get to rub the noses of anti-Islamic bigots in our religious freedom at the same time. When the Islamo-fascists and the anti-Islamic bigots are both pissed off at you, you know you’re doing something right. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/42 "2010-05-14T20:57:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I totally agree with every word of **Shodan** ’s post (and how often do I get to say THAT?!? 😛 ). > > An additional benefit is that we also get to rub the noses of anti-Islamic bigots in our religious freedom at the same time. When the Islamo-fascists and the anti-Islamic bigots are both pissed off at you, you know you’re doing something right. And I, in turn, agree with this whole-heartedly. Something to point to when someone says “all those Mooslums are terrorists”. “No, they’re not - there’s a mosque two minutes away being all nice and quiet and American and respectful. Try doing the same.” Might be nice if the mosque came and prayed by the site once in a while. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/43 "2010-05-14T22:30:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Might be nice if the mosque came and prayed by the site once in a while. That would be a hell of a sight to see, a building heaving itself up from its foundations and rumbling down the street. And you thought New York had already seen it all. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/44 "2010-05-14T22:41:37Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Ostentatiously de-friended,” eh? Looks like a guilty conscience to me. Better look up the number for the Royal Ulster Constabulary and drop a dime on her. > > ETA: Whoops, they’re the PSNI these days, apparently. It was really hilarious – she didn’t even TRY to argue the point, she just deleted my comment and then yelled at me for being outrageously rude and anti-Catholic and anti-Irish. Meanwhile one of my other friends also got de-friended for posting “I’ve donated to the PIRA in the past and I agree with what Z said.” (he was radical in the past, he’s better now.) Of course none of the other so-called conservatives on my friends list called her out on it. Makes me appreciate \*\*Shodan \*\*et. al. that much more every time I come here. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/45 "2010-05-14T23:27:13Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Hey kanicbird, have you ever considered starting some sort of e-church? With, like, a regular blogged or podcasted sermon? I’d listen. The church exists anytime that one or more believers in Jesus gather together, which includes the SDMB, the pub, the hiking club, the job site, etc. Jesus is in real life, not just in the ‘conventional churches’, you can read about this in His ministry in the NT. As for me doing a formal ‘church’, I doubt it at this time, though who knows what the Lord will bring. Bob Marley reached far more people with the message of ‘don’t worry, be happy’ then Jeremy Camp (Christian rock group) reached with ‘Count it pure joy when you world comes crashing, life up your head and keep on dancing’, both express the same message from scripture. Jesus came to reach the people who needed to hear it where they are. I know this is off topic but wanted to answer your question, I am willing to discuss further, but lets return to the OP here, either PM or new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/46 "2010-05-15T02:10:43Z")
They can build a mosque any place they have the permit to do so. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/47 "2010-05-15T02:32:59Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Remember the Maine! Plymouth Rock, and the Golden Rule! Our children’s children gonna have trouble, trouble, trouble . . . ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/48 "2010-05-15T03:23:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Plymouth Rock, and the Golden Rule! > > Our children’s children gonna have trouble, trouble, trouble . . . I’m going to take some MAJOR fire/flaming for this BUT it is EXTREMELY bad taste to erect a mosque next to Ground Zero ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/49 "2010-05-15T03:29:30Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Slight hijack, but I think this is an important misunderstanding… > > Sufism does NOT equal pacifism. Sufis are just Islamic mystics and that does not imply any inherent moderation. Within sufism you can in fact find some of the most liberal Muslims( including actual pacifists ), but also some pretty retrograde extremists. While you won’t find any Wahhabi sufis ( mutually exclusive ), you _can_ find Deobandi sufis and Deobandism is an intellectual kissing cousin of Wahhabism. The Taliban are heavily influenced by Deobandism. > > Now it is probably reasonable to consider sufis more moderate _in general_. For example some ex-Soviet Central Asian countries were at one time promoting Naqshbandi sufism in particular as a type of inoculant to slow the spread of more pernicious Islamic fundamentalism. And I’d guess that any sufi group setting up in NYC are probably pretty moderate/liberal as such things go. > > But it’s best to be clear about such things. Sufism comes in many different flavors, in fact even within the same ostensible sufi orders you get a lot of variance. So while it is often a more moderate face of Islam, it is not automatically so. I do understand this, and I was being flippant to make my point, which, you’re right, is an absolute and a generalization and therefore almost certainly untrue if taken literally. Certainly there are sufis who are violent, much like you could probably find some violent Quakers if you looked hard enough or provoked them enough. My basic point was that sufis are usually understood as a more pacifist and less threatening group than either Sunnis or Shias. Not that Sunnis and Shias are actually threatening. I’ll stop talking now. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/50 "2010-05-15T03:39:18Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I’m going to take some MAJOR fire/flaming for this BUT it is EXTREMELY bad taste to erect a mosque next to Ground Zero Not really flaming, but you’re wrong. It’s actually a very positive sign, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/51 "2010-05-15T03:58:37Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I’m going to take some MAJOR fire/flaming for this BUT it is EXTREMELY bad taste to erect a mosque next to Ground Zero Excuse the question: What religion are you? Would you like your freedoms arbitrarily restricted because of the worst actions of your in-name-only co-religionists? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/52 "2010-05-15T14:22:32Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html) > > First off, I have respect for the Islam faith and the Muslim community. I also realize that it was extremists that executed the attacks on the World Trade Center. However, does anyone else think that MAYBE it’s a bit insensitive to erect a mosque in the very shadow of Ground Zero and have the ribbon cutting on September 11th, 2011? I mean, of all places why did they choose THERE to build? Isn’t there a possibility of more lives being lost from anti-Islamic groups? Consider the irony of comparing the Al Aqsa mosque located on the destroyed temple mount, the former capital of the Jewish religion , with this new mosque being located on the destroyed ground zero, former capital of Western capitalism. However, I really don’t see any anything to get fussed up about. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/53 "2010-05-15T14:49:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Osama Bin Ladan once said that he will use our freedom to destroy it It’s an old meme - Lenin tried it too: “The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” It won’t have any more succes than Lenin’s did. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/54 "2010-05-15T15:04:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I totally agree with every word of **Shodan** ’s post (and how often do I get to say THAT?!? 😛 ). > > An additional benefit is that we also get to rub the noses of anti-Islamic bigots in our religious freedom at the same time. When the Islamo-fascists and the anti-Islamic bigots are both pissed off at you, you know you’re doing something right. I might agree with both of you if you didn’t use the term “Islamofascist”. I don’t see a lot of fascist traits among the terrorists who claim to be Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/55 "2010-05-15T17:52:13Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Consider the irony of comparing the Al Aqsa mosque located on the destroyed temple mount, the former capital of the Jewish religion , with this new mosque being located on the destroyed ground zero, former capital of Western capitalism. Your analogy fails because the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif is not just a Jewish holy site, it is a Muslim holy site as well. According to hadith, it is the destination of Muhammad’s [Night Journey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi'raj#Masjid_al-Aqsa.2C_the_farthest_mosque). That is why al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock were built there, not because of some political point. (Although my History of Islam professor once suggested that there might have been a political angle, but when I briefly mentioned his theory years ago, **Collounsbury** shot it down with the force of a million suns, cursing my professor, me, and everyone I’ve ever come in contact with.) I’m not sure I understand what your ironical point is, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/56 "2010-05-15T23:34:07Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Your analogy fails because the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif is not just a Jewish holy site, it is a Muslim holy site as well. According to hadith, it is the destination of Muhammad’s [Night Journey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi'raj#Masjid_al-Aqsa.2C_the_farthest_mosque). Perhaps one day your grand children will be able to assert that the ground zero location is an Islamic holy site as well. [rolleyes] ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/57 "2010-05-16T00:11:34Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Perhaps one day your grand children will be able to assert that the ground zero location is an Islamic holy site as well. [rolleyes] I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/58 "2010-05-16T05:36:02Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Maybe this is a good plan. Put mosques near or in our governmant facilities so the terrorists would lose face if they destroyed their own places of worship. Blowing up each other’s mosques is something of an art form in Iraq so that idea wouldn’t really pan out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/59 "2010-05-16T06:05:17Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I’m going to take some MAJOR fire/flaming for this BUT it is EXTREMELY bad taste to erect a mosque next to Ground Zero You’ve already taken criticism for this view because you’ve presented no logical argument whatsoever. Bad taste is letting angry and uninformed people decide how everyone else should behave regardless of logic or consistency. And two blocks away is not “next to.” That’s why people keep asking you if you just want to declare a Muslim free zone down there. If two blocks away is bad taste, why is four okay? Or ten? The WTC site is 16 acres. It’s _huge_. Do you realize how many other buildings are within two blocks of that site? [I’m looking at a map and I’m not sure how explain what a large area you’re talking about.](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=45+park+place+nyc&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=45+Park+Pl,+New+York,+NY+10007&gl=us&ei=2orvS_ubPIP7lwfw6520CA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ8gEwAA) The big empty gray square is the WTC site, and the ‘A’ marker is the site of the proposed mosque and community center on Park Place. Everything from a long stretch of Broadway and Fulton to maybe Murray could be considered as within two blocks (or in your version, “next to”). It goes without saying there are already churches in that area, including some well known ones, and plenty of department stores and other places of business that don’t have any particular grand meaning. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/60 "2010-05-16T06:37:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I might agree with both of you if you didn’t use the term “Islamofascist”. I don’t see a lot of fascist traits among the terrorists who claim to be Muslim. I always just used it because they want to use violence to make everybody Muslim, or dead. Or, at least, as far as I know. Plus it just sounds cool. Got any other single words that would work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=4)