# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/601 "2010-08-22T20:57:43Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Wow, could PLEASE answer it? **JKellymap** did. > > Here’s a suggestion, friend. Start a poll in “In My Humble Opinion”. It’s fun! SDMB will make a neato colored graph of the results, at no extra charge! > > That way, you’ll get a good statistical sample (which is what you seem to be after), and not risk pissing off the Dopers who are enganged in this thread here. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/602 "2010-08-22T20:58:57Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > I don’t answer silly questions. It’s a code of honor. 😃 > > > > Now you could stop asking silly questions and actually talk about the issue, instead of clouding it with ignorance. > > Wow, could PLEASE answer it? **JKellymap** did. No, because it is meaningless. Although if one were clever one could look at what I did write and deduce my answer. On topic: There is really no argument against the community center except for some mealy-mouthed, “they-should-know-better” clucking from people who think all Muslims are suspect. The Imam in particular is fairly moderate. Yet people on the right have internalized the “he refuses to denounce Hamas” and the “he said we were to blame for 911” misinformation and keep repeating them. First off, why would you denounce a legally elected party of the groups you’re trying to bring together? If you want to build bridges you don’t mouth off with a Bushian Axis-of-Evil comment. It’s stupid and counterproductive. Second off the idea that America didn’t do anything that made us a target for 911 is profoundly goofy. We weren’t to blame, but our actions did add to their motivation. Only a fool could question that. Our fingers are in a lot of Middle East pies and some take umbrage. And no one but a blind jingoist can believe we’ve been unilaterally on the side of angels there. Anywho, the nice thing is it will get built. And Newt will be known as an un-American sack of shit forever. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/603 "2010-08-22T21:00:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Wow, could PLEASE answer it? **JKellymap** did. > > No, because it is meaningless. Although if one were clever one could look at what I did write and deduce my answer. > > On topic: There is really no argument against the community center except for some mealy-mouthed, “they-should-know-better” clucking from people who think all Muslims are suspect. The Imam in particular is fairly moderate. Yet people on the right have internalized the “he refuses to denounce Hamas” and the “he said we were to blame for 911” misinformation and keep repeating them. > > First off, why would you denounce a legally elected party of the groups you’re trying to bring together? If you want to build bridges you don’t mouth off with a Bushian Axis-of-Evil comment. It’s stupid and counterproductive. > > Second off the idea that America didn’t do anything that made us a target for 911 is profoundly goofy. We weren’t to blame, but our actions did add to their motivation. Only a fool could question that. Our fingers are in a lot of Middle East pies and some take umbrage. And no one but a blind jingoist can believe we’ve been unilaterally on the side of angels there. > > Anywho, the nice thing is it will get built. And Newt will be known as an un-American sack of shit forever. Yay! Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/604 "2010-08-22T21:00:51Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@JKellyMap](#): > > > > Here’s a suggestion, friend. Start a poll in “In My Humble Opinion”. It’s fun! SDMB will make a neato colored graph of the results, at no extra charge! > > > > That way, you’ll get a good statistical sample (which is what you seem to be after), and not risk pissing off the Dopers who are enganged in this thread here. > > Answer the question. “You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike” ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/605 "2010-08-22T21:05:54Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Answer the question. > > “You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike” Not really my friend. You showed balls by answering. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/606 "2010-08-22T21:08:34Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > Answer the question. No. See above. Also, could you stop the hijack? I’d like to participate in this thread, not play pingpong with your empty theatrics. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/607 "2010-08-22T21:08:45Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > because it’s a ridiculous question > > > > If an attack originates from a plane what conclusions can I draw about the plane, or planes in general? > > No, the original question was if it was PLANNED from the community center, would your opinion change?. The deployment of said weapon is irrelevant. My answer is the same. I said it “originates” from a plane you said planned from the community center. The principle still stands and your question is still foolish. I see there are those who seem to embrace your argument though. They evidently believe Muslims should not be allowed to have any Mosques because of the danger of religious tolerance. Maybe the next step is to improve security by not allowed Islam to be practiced at all. I mean it’s only our constitution. What does that matter when compared to potential threats? We could participate in the planned Koran burning. Later we can invade Muslim homes and throw them in jail or deport them for owning a Koran. I’m pretty sure that will cut down on the violence. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/608 "2010-08-22T21:10:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > No, the original question was if it was PLANNED from the community center, would your opinion change?. The deployment of said weapon is irrelevant. > > My answer is the same. I said it “originates” from a plane you said planned from the community center. The principle still stands and your question is still foolish. > > I see there are those who seem to embrace your argument though. They evidently believe Muslims should not be allowed to have any Mosques because of the danger of religious tolerance. Maybe the next step is to improve security by not allowed Islam to be practiced at all. I mean it’s only our constitution. What does that matter when compared to potential threats? > We could participate in the planned Koran burning. > Later we can invade Muslim homes and throw them in jail or deport them for owning a Koran. I’m pretty sure that will cut down on the violence. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/609 "2010-08-22T21:15:04Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > My answer is the same. I said it “originates” from a plane you said planned from the community center. The principle still stands and your question is still foolish. > > > > I see there are those who seem to embrace your argument though. They evidently believe Muslims should not be allowed to have any Mosques because of the danger of religious tolerance. Maybe the next step is to improve security by not allowed Islam to be practiced at all. I mean it’s only our constitution. What does that matter when compared to potential threats? > > We could participate in the planned Koran burning. > > Later we can invade Muslim homes and throw them in jail or deport them for owning a Koran. I’m pretty sure that will cut down on the violence. > > Answer the question. I already did. I’m sorry if you don’t get it. {not that sorry} I’ve made my point and participated in the discussion. You’ve wasted bandwidth and made no point at all. I’m done wasting time on you. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/610 "2010-08-22T21:20:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Answer the question. > > I already did. I’m sorry if you don’t get it. {not that sorry} > I’ve made my point and participated in the discussion. You’ve wasted bandwidth and made no point at all. I’m done wasting time on you. No you didn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/611 "2010-08-22T21:28:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Answer the question. > > No. See above. Also, could you stop the hijack? > > I’d like to participate in this thread, not play pingpong with your empty theatrics. Hijack? IT’S MY THREAD! Am I not being relevant enough? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/612 "2010-08-22T21:33:05Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > No. See above. Also, could you stop the hijack? > > > > I’d like to participate in this thread, not play pingpong with your empty theatrics. > > Hijack? IT’S MY THREAD! Am I not being relevant enough? No, because the question is silly. As I said, where they planned it is irrelevant, unless they were helped by the management. Some guys whispering evil things in a locker room does nothing to besmirch the Gym management. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/613 "2010-08-22T21:37:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Hijack? IT’S MY THREAD! Am I not being relevant enough? > > No, because the question is silly. > > As I said, where they planned it is irrelevant, unless they were helped by the management. Some guys whispering evil things in a locker room does nothing to besmirch the Gym management. So if you saw an attack on the US that was planned from that community center your opinion(s) wouldn’t change? ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/614 "2010-08-22T21:41:11Z")
I, for one, would appreciate a bit more info on what point **Darth** is trying to make by insisting people respond to his hypothetical. Is it that people are actually emotional beings and might change their minds for non-logical reasons? Is it that building the community center is a bad idea? In other words, how does this have a useful connection to the present reality? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/615 "2010-08-22T21:42:20Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > If there is an attack against the US that is directly tied to this community center (which is incredibly unlikely) would any of the pro-center Dopers change their viewpoint? What does this even mean? If any given organization is planning or conducting illegal activities, we have legal means to deal with that. I’d support an investigation conducted according to US laws to figure out who is playing what role, and to determine if the center itself is a criminal organization or if it is a group that happens to have a few criminals in it. It’d be no different than investigating a bar tied to mafia activity. We’ve shown a willingness to do this in the past, although sometimes with mixed results ala Waco. It’s not like we don’t have laws in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/616 "2010-08-22T21:44:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > If there is an attack against the US that is directly tied to this community center (which is incredibly unlikely) would any of the pro-center Dopers change their viewpoint? > > What does this even mean? > > If any given organization is planning or conducting illegal activities, we have legal means to deal with that. I’d support an investigation conducted according to US laws to figure out who is playing what role, and to determine if the center itself is a criminal organization or if it is a group that happens to have a few criminals in it. It’d be no different than investigating a bar tied to mafia activity. We’ve shown a willingness to do this in the past, although sometimes with mixed results ala Waco. > > It’s not like we don’t have laws in this country. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/617 "2010-08-22T21:45:46Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > [@even\_sven](#): > > > > What does this even mean? > > > > If any given organization is planning or conducting illegal activities, we have legal means to deal with that. I’d support an investigation conducted according to US laws to figure out who is playing what role, and to determine if the center itself is a criminal organization or if it is a group that happens to have a few criminals in it. It’d be no different than investigating a bar tied to mafia activity. We’ve shown a willingness to do this in the past, although sometimes with mixed results ala Waco. > > > > It’s not like we don’t have laws in this country. > > Answer the question. Second verse, same as the first. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/618 "2010-08-22T21:46:26Z")
> [@iophobon](#): > > I, for one, would appreciate a bit more info on what point **Darth** is trying to make by insisting people respond to his hypothetical. Is it that people are actually emotional beings and might change their minds for non-logical reasons? Is it that building the community center is a bad idea? > > In other words, how does this have a useful connection to the present reality? Are you positing that they are not? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/619 "2010-08-22T21:47:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > > > Answer the question. > > Second verse, same as the first. Answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/620 "2010-08-22T21:51:06Z")
I will answer the question in an attempt to actually get _some_ sort of dialog / useful posts. If a future attack occurs that was planned in the CC, looking back at the past, I would probably have an emotional reaction along the lines of “well, maybe we should have blocked its construction.” Of course, that would also be offset by the realizations of 1) that’s a stupid thing to think because it would have involved violated the first amendment and how could we know at the time anyway and 2) wait, why would keeping terrorists from planning two blocks away also keep them from planning at other mosques which I’m sure are at most a few miles away? So explain how this answer means anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=32)