# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/761 "2010-08-23T19:02:40Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > In the first place, no one is saying that mosques should not be allowed to build anywhere. That’s a strawman that you can stuff where the sun does not shine. Bullshit. People ARE saying they shouldn’t be built anywhere. Is Murfreesboro, TN too close to Ground Zero for a mosque? Apparently some people think so. You can’t have it both ways. You either hold all Muslims culpable for 9/11 or you don’t. If you admit that all Muslims are not responsible for 9/11, then you have NO excuse to be against a mosque anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/762 "2010-08-23T19:03:16Z")
I will never understand why people who judge an entire group by the actions of a few and are proud to do so then cavil at the word “bigoted.” Embrace it, people! If it’s something to be ashamed of, try to change your stance rather than trying to change the word. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/763 "2010-08-23T19:04:47Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > All muslims are equivalent to members of the Nazi party? > > Not really. I used the Nazi party as a analogy because I am certain that most of us are in agreement that both the Nazi party and Islam have distasteful beliefs Seriously? How about Fred Phelp’s church has distasteful beliefs much as OBL’s Wahhabism has distasteful beliefs? Nazis - fucking Christ. I must have missed the transnational movement with a massive fucking army and bureaucracy geared to destroying the US. Given the millions of Muslim citizens in the US apparently crouched and ready to spring on a helpless nation you should be able to show a significant portion are Nazi-ish. Should be easy right? ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/764 "2010-08-23T19:04:55Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > > [@blanx](#): > > > > I thought long and hard about your post, and my conclusion is, “So?” > > > > While I disagree with your interpretation of Islam, even if you’re right- so what? > > > > Personally, I think that ALL religions are silly, offensive, and pointless. Equally so. The rights enumerated in the Constitution apply to all people. Muslims should be more “tasteful”, to borrow your phrase? Please. American free speech, and freedom of religion ought to be stronger and more resilient than that. Free speech **requires** toleration of assholery. > > > > I don’t want churches in my neighborhood, because I like to sleep in. But, unless there’s a law, I’m SOL. > > That’s precisely my point. I support their right to build a mosque there. I just think they’re assholes. And I’m not bigoted for saying it. Actually, it seems to me that you are. You seem to believe, or at least have argued here, that Islam and its adherents are a monolithic force, and all share the same beliefs re > [@](#): > > inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah? That seems, per the definition of bigotry, to be bigotry. > [@](#): > > big·ot·ry    > –noun, plural -ries. > > 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own. > 2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot I mean, isn’t everything you’re saying square within #1? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/765 "2010-08-23T19:08:27Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > But this hypothetical Nazi party claims to do the same. They will build bridges between Nazism and Judaism in order to avoid future violence. If you want the analogy to actually work, you’d have to hypothesize a National Socialism as neutral as Sufism–one that believes they are the best governmental system, and evangelizes to that effect, but does not engage in terrorism or in discrimination against non-members of any stripe. Oh, and they’d have to be working against genocide. Those guys, IMHO, can build wherever the hell they want, too. If a person is so sensitive that the mere fact that someone with a worldview that’s superficially barely related to an evil one (and is actively working to suppress/marginalize the evil one!) might be nearby to someplace that the separate, evil group did something evil at, then to hell with 'em. I don’t get bent out of shape by Sunday School still taking place in the Diocese of Los Angeles, either, and the subset of Catholics currently running the place is SIGNIFICANTLY closer to the subset who was actively hiding the child molestations taking place there than Cordoba Initiative is to Al-Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/766 "2010-08-23T19:12:45Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Big difference. In the first place, no one is saying that mosques should not be allowed to build anywhere. That’s a strawman that you can stuff where the sun does not shine. I don’t know how you’ve managed to miss it, because it’s all over the news, but building of new mosques are being protested all over the country, and people are saying that they shouldn’t be built anywhere. While a high-profile battle rages over a mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, heated confrontations have also broken out in communities across the country where mosques are proposed for far less hallowed locations. > [@](#): > > In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting. > In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby. > In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor. > [@](#): > > In the wake of the uproar over the mosque to be built near “ground zero” in New York, a prominent, controversial social conservative is calling for the prohibition of the construction of any mosques in the United States. > “Permits should not be granted to build even one more mosque in the United States of America, let alone the monstrosity planned for Ground Zero,” Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association wrote this week on the AFA website. “This is for one simple reason: each Islamic mosque is dedicated to the overthrow of the American government.” [http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503544\_162-503544.html?keyword=American+Family+Association](http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-503544_162-503544.html?keyword=American+Family+Association) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/767 "2010-08-23T19:20:16Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > I am against ALL “assholery”. This is a touchy topic and a lot of people are getting emotional. But it doesn’t change the fact that these Muslims are assholes. And moral suasion and pointing out assholery is NOT bigoted. You keep repeating this but you haven’t offered one reasonable argument to support it. All the factual details about Rauf and his work, Muslim victims of the same attack, and everything else that’s been listed repeatedly show nothing insensitive about this particular group wanting to build there and contribute to the community. The only connection you can point to to justify your accusation is they are Muslim, and the 9/11 attackers were also Muslim. {like a couple of billion other people} Since the only possible connection is a common name of a religion {with extremely different beliefs} that, my friend, indisputably qualifies as bigotry. > [@](#): > > a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance Maybe hatred is too strong in a lot of cases but intolernce seems spot on. American citizens trying to exercise a right we celbrate and proudly defend, are protested against and called assholes for the single reason that they share a religion in name only with some crazies that they have no connection to. IMO it can’t be anything but intolernce and the definition of bigotry. I assume you’re familiar with the [Westboro Baptist Church](http://www.godhatesfags.com/) Can you imagine how [Matthew Sheppard’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard) family and friends feel when they see those protests? If some Christian church managed to buy some property a mile or so away from where Matthew was killed and wanted to build a community center would they be assholes? Is their Christianity somehow automaticially connected to the crazed haters of WBC, or woyld that be kinda ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/768 "2010-08-23T19:40:09Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > But this hypothetical Nazi party claims to do the same. They will build bridges between Nazism and Judaism in order to avoid future violence. Comon man. Just find an analogy that works better if you can. I suggest you don’t start with the kinder gentler KKK. If the Nazi’s had existed for a thousands years with a similar mixed and rich a history and with as much diversity as Muslims you might make this work. Nazi’s are pretty much only identified by the horrors of WWII. How about this If Hindus wanted to build a community center two blocks from a Holocaust museum in DC would they be assholes because one of their religious symbols is remarkably similar to a [Swastika?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/769 "2010-08-23T19:43:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > If you want the analogy to actually work, you’d have to hypothesize a National Socialism as neutral as Sufism–one that believes they are the best governmental system, and evangelizes to that effect, but does not engage in terrorism or in discrimination against non-members of any stripe. Oh, and they’d have to be working against genocide. And it would still fail, unless you further posit that this “neutral” Nazi party existed at the time of the Holocaust, and had members who were victims at Auschwitz. What **Anduril** seems unable to grasp is that the attack on 9/11 wasn’t aimed at a religion, it was aimed at a nation. That nation contains a great many Muslims. Those Muslims, too, were victims of the attack, every bit as much as any other American. To say to Muslims, “You have to stay away from this area, out of respect for the victims,” is to say to them, “You are not really Americans. You were not victims here, we were.” That is a reprehensible thing to say under almost any circumstances. In this particular situation, to say it to Muslims who lived and worked near the WTC for more than thirty years, who lived through the attack and who may have had family or friends die in it, is inexcusable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/770 "2010-08-23T19:51:54Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > That would be a brilliant analogy, if it were in any way… well, analogous. Which part of the Cordoba Initiative’s literature do you think is equivalent to “Jews are inferior”? > > Let’s refer to Islamic literature that divides everything into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”. I don’t have the faintest idea what this is supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/771 "2010-08-23T19:53:05Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > That’s your contention. It is also the contention of some that even Sufis cannot separate themselves from the inherently violent and un-American beliefs that pervade Islam. Shariah? Actually Imam Rauf mantains that the spiritual practices of Islam have a lot in common with the principles of our democracy, equal rights, equal opportunity, etc. [He even wrote a book about it.](http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Right-Islam-Vision-Muslims/dp/0060750626) I’d think those are exactly the kind of beliefs and practices we want to support. It seems to me that you are unable to accept that several billion Muslims can have widely varying beliefs about how Islam is practiced even though it’s so plainly obvious in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/772 "2010-08-23T20:03:58Z")
hijack; I wear almost no jewelry but years ago I bought [St Brendan’s Cross](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.celebrationsca.com/pics_products/Jewelry/ArtistCollection/LovellDesigns/ChristmasCoveCollection/C-StBrendansCross.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.celebrationsca.com/SW_ChristmasCoveCollection.htm&h=402&w=411&sz=45&tbnid=RpsOdfeb2hNkZM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dst%2Bbrendan%2527s%2Bcross&zoom=1&hl=en&usg=__SMJ9-ceBC1GObkmfN2afjuUw8rU=&sa=X&ei=79FyTOnoI4P-8AaSxYG5DA&ved=0CBgQ9QEwAA) at a coastal shop. I like it, and my girls all have one. Every so often someone would look at it and ask with a trace of suspicion, “Is that a Swastika?” The first few times I explained what it was. One guy said “Well sometimes people hide a swastika in some other design” as if I was some secret Arlan supremacist of some crap. Finally I got tired of explaining. It doesn’t look like a swastika to me. So, when people asked my response was a Colonel Klink voice and " Yah! …und?" Then they just walked away looking bewildered. end hijack; ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/773 "2010-08-23T20:57:37Z")
That’s pretty cool. If it makes you feel any better, my wife and I had a secondary Hindu wedding ceremony and there were swastikas everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/774 "2010-08-23T21:11:37Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Not really. I used the Nazi party as a analogy because I am certain that most of us are in agreement that both the Nazi party and Islam have distasteful beliefs. Not really. Speaking of which, I’m still waiting for my crowing Muslim. Or did you think you’d get off the hook by keeping quiet a few days ? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/775 "2010-08-23T21:13:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@even\_sven](#): > > > > Who cares what terrorists think? > > The people of New York who were subjected to the worst attack on American soil ever. I don’t get this. On one hand some conservatives (and I lean conservative) tell us that we shouldn’t pay attention to what foreigners think and do what’s best for America. Then they tell us we should violate the 1st Amendment because of what terrorists might think. Doesn’t compute. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/776 "2010-08-23T21:15:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Let’s refer to Islamic literature that divides everything into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”. > > I don’t have the faintest idea what this is supposed to mean. It means them Muslims think the people who don’t believe in Allah are different, and live poorer lives for not knowing the light of God. Sort of like Jews and gentiles, or Christians and heathens… but evil. Evil I tells you ! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/777 "2010-08-23T21:19:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s pretty cool. > > If it makes you feel any better, my wife and I had a secondary Hindu wedding ceremony and there were swastikas everywhere. no fooling? I didn’t realize it was a Hindu symbol until today. Has anyone ever commented on it? My Dad was a WWII anti Aircraft gunner, his boss years ago was an ex german WWII pilot. They actually joked about it. So why can’t we get along? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/778 "2010-08-23T21:31:49Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Islam should be banned in its entirety, that is if you care about the USA that most on this board do not. How do you propose to do that when the US Constitution (you do care about the Constitution, right?) says: > [@First Amendment](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/779 "2010-08-23T21:49:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > no fooling? I didn’t realize it was a Hindu symbol until today. Has anyone ever commented on it? Derailing anecdote but : you wouldn’t believe the fuss her parents made when an old GF of mine, who happens to be Jewish, came home with a Japanese omamori good luck charm featuring a big old manji. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/780 "2010-08-23T21:55:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think so. I think it’s a revelation of the deep-seated xenophobia, hatred, and religious intolerance of this country. I agree that xenophobia and hatred is being stirred up, but these people are completely incoherent. If they actually were worried about this Muslim threat, they would be furious about how intertwined our economy is with various Middle Eastern countries. But I don’t see them calling for divestiture from Saudi Arabia. I don’t seem them down at Fox News protesting the fact that a member of the Saudi Royal Family is the largest shareholder of News Corp after the Murdoch family. Hell, I bet if this were a Sunni Mosque, Fox would have avoided the story like the plague so as not to offend one of their biggest shareholders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=40)