# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/841 "2010-08-24T19:39:14Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Well we could call you a Nazi I suppose, but that would be stupid. Not accordng to Newt Gingrich, and since he is allowed to be a history buff who ignores history, he should know. ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/842 "2010-08-24T19:50:43Z")
Actually, that’s the question I’d like you, **Anduril** , to answer. 1. Is it “tasteful” for this center to be built anywhere? 2. If yes, then how close to the WTC site does it become distasteful/assholery? The NY border? Queens? Manhattan? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/843 "2010-08-24T20:44:23Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Meh. This is what passes for a cogent argument these days? As a rant, I’d give it a 10 but that’s all it is… a rant. “You just didn’t like it cuz your a liberal!” isn’t exactly a cogent argument itself. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/844 "2010-08-24T22:21:22Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Well we could call you a Nazi I suppose, but that would be stupid. Oh psshaw, it wouldn’t be stupid. I am certain that most of us are in agreement that both the Nazi party and **Anduril** have distasteful beliefs. Thus, **Anduril** is analgous to Geobbels. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/845 "2010-08-24T22:44:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Meh. This is what passes for a cogent argument these days? As a rant, I’d give it a 10 but that’s all it is… a rant. > > “You just didn’t like it cuz your a liberal!” isn’t exactly a cogent argument itself. But at least we know that **Anduril** knows what an _ad hominem_ actually looks like. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/846 "2010-08-24T22:46:52Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Thus, **Anduril** is analgous to Geobbels. I like Geobbels. They’re so cute and fuzzy,…and they like butts:o ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/847 "2010-08-25T02:16:32Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > That’s precisely my point. I support their right to build a mosque there. I just think they’re assholes. And I’m not bigoted for saying it. I am not quite sure what you are using to establish that you are not behaving in a bigoted fashion. The various branches of Islam are not the same, do not share identical beliefs, and display wildly different behaviors, yet you wish to lump them all together under a single umbrella as though they were the same. The Cordoba Initiative purchased the building they intend to replace because it was in their own neighborhood and because it was (relatively) inexpensive. Over the course of many months, no one had a problem with the proposed building until some raving hate filled lunatic decided to use their proposed building to wage polemical war on the group. At no time has anyone from the Cordoba Initiative claimed that that building was their God-granted location and that they had to build there. Imam Rauf’s wife has even stated that if it is necessary and a suitable replacement could be found, they would be willing to relocate. Of course, none of the ignorant haters have offered to re-imburse them for the building for which they have already secured a mortgage, so they are not really in a position to simply change locations. Given that the location is not where all the haters claimed it was “at” Ground Zero and is not even within sight of the WTC site and that it was clearly not purchased with an intent to cause emotional distress and that it clearly is in the neighborhood from which they have operated for over two decades and that their mission, both as stated and as displayed in their actions, is to work against the sortof hatred engendered by Wahhabista and embraced by you, there is no reason to accuse them of being unfeeling–certainly no reason to accuse them of being assholes. So, on what is your claim to not display bigotry based? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/848 "2010-08-25T02:17:45Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Thus, **Anduril** is analgous to Geobbels. Wa-a-ay too close to a direct personal insult. Do not continue in this fashion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/849 "2010-08-25T03:21:19Z")
Yeah, thats the trouble with Goebbels. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/850 "2010-08-25T03:30:33Z")
Hey guys, just wanted to say that I’m sorry I answered the question. Didn’t know what I was getting us into there. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/851 "2010-08-25T09:35:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > Thus, **Anduril** is analgous to Geobbels. > > Wa-a-ay too close to a direct personal insult. To be fair, the intent wasn’t to assert the Anuril was analogous to Goebbels but to pint out the fallacy that if \ shares some attribute with \ it may well be completely fallacious to say: Thus x is an analogue of y. e.g. We all agree that both snow and cauliflowers are white: Thus snow is analogous to cauliflower. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/852 "2010-08-25T11:57:38Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > To be fair, the intent wasn’t to assert the Anuril was analogous to Goebbels. . . So noted, and I am sure it was prompted by Anduril’s ludicrous analogy employing “Nazis”, but selecting a notorious Nazi and equating him to Anduril, even by analogy, in a heated thread, is still too close to name calling and would probably prompt others to rif on the theme in an insulting way. We will not pursue that theme. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/853 "2010-08-25T16:49:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > That’s precisely my point. I support their right to build a mosque there. I just think they’re assholes. And I’m not bigoted for saying it. > > I am not quite sure what you are using to establish that you are not behaving in a bigoted fashion…So, on what is your claim to not display bigotry based? **Anduril** claims he’s not a bigot. He didn’t claim he’s not displaying bigotry. To rephrase his claim dishonest. > [@](#): > > …until some raving hate filled lunatic decided to use their proposed building to wage polemical war on the group… Of course, none of the ignorant haters have offered to re-imburse them for the building…Given that the location is not where all the haters claimed it was “at” Ground Zero … So you apply the broad brush of hatred against all those who oppose the mosque ? Obviously nothing **Anduril** could say could possibly satisfy you that he is not “displaying” bigotry. I think your attempt to label **Anduril** a bigoted hater has gone far enough. Perhaps you might want to take it to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/854 "2010-08-25T16:53:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > I am not quite sure what you are using to establish that you are not behaving in a bigoted fashion…So, on what is your claim to not display bigotry based? > > **Anduril** claims he’s not a bigot. He didn’t claim he’s not displaying bigotry. To rephrase his claim dishonest. I have no dog in the \*\*Anduril \*\*being a bigot fight, but how else would you define a bigot other than as someone who displays bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/855 "2010-08-25T16:58:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Love it, but my favorite part was the word “draughtsmen” instead of the more modern “draftsman”. Were you trying to be archaic or is draughtsmen indeed what you would generally use? “Draughtsmen” ism’t archaic. It’s current British English. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/856 "2010-08-25T17:42:02Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Anduril** claims he’s not a bigot. He didn’t claim he’s not displaying bigotry. To rephrase his claim dishonest. Piffle. I watered down his statement rather than holding him to it. One may not be a dyed-in-the-wool bigot and still display bigotry from time to time. I just asked how he would describe his statements in a way that would not implicate him in bigotry. I am not going to pursue the issue;I was just curious. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > …until some raving hate filled lunatic decided to use their proposed building to wage polemical war on the group… Of course, none of the ignorant haters have offered to re-imburse them for the building…Given that the location is not where all the haters claimed it was “at” Ground Zero … > > So you apply the broad brush of hatred against all those who oppose the mosque ? Obviously nothing **Anduril** could say could possibly satisfy you that he is not “displaying” bigotry. Go back and read what you have quoted. Every reference to the ignorant haters has been to those who first turned this non-story into an issue of Muslim-bashing. None of my comments were in reference to those who have followed the comments by the initial demagogues. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/857 "2010-08-25T18:20:11Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Anduril** claims he’s not a bigot. He didn’t claim he’s not displaying bigotry. To rephrase his claim dishonest. > > So you apply the broad brush of hatred against all those who oppose the mosque ? Obviously nothing **Anduril** could say could possibly satisfy you that he is not “displaying” bigotry. > > I think your attempt to label **Anduril** a bigoted hater has gone far enough. Perhaps you might want to take it to the pit. Bigot, regarding a specific subject is not to claim that someone isn’t otherwise a decent and valuable human being. People can have their blind spots, sometimes on one particular subject. I hesitate to use the word bigot here because it comes to close to violating the no insults rule so we should be very careful to direct it at specific posts. It’s one thing to think these particular Muslims as people are being insensitive. I don’t agree but I wouldn’t say that in itself is a bigoted statement. When you defend that statement with phrases that paint all 1.5 billion Muslims with the same broad brush then you reveal the bigotry. It fits the definitions that I and another poster posted. I don’t paint all those who oppose the Mosque with the same brush, but I do condemn the despicable media that has been fanning the fires or religious intolerance with their dishonest manipulation of the facts. Now I’m about to start a thread about a Muslim cabbie who was stabbed in NYC just for being Muslim. That’s the kind of thing that happens when we allow the fear mongers to manipulate us. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/858 "2010-08-26T14:24:09Z")
Just to comment on a comparison Jon made on the Daily show last night. He showed a clip of ORiely ranting that if the Park 51 gets built somewhere in the world radical Muslims will celebrate and see it as a victory. We had a poster making the same argument. Every time I heard that I wondered how they’d know that, and more importantly WTF difference does it make? When discussing an issue of sensitivity{is it somehow hurtful to build it close to ground zero} vs religious tolerance and supporting the 1st amendment, on American soil with American citizens, why should we give any consideration to what Muslims who hate America might or might not think? Jon pointed out that while those who denounce the building of Park 51 claim it will somehow embolden terrorists, those who support it say not building it will help terrorists to show America hates all of Islam. Jon compared it to caring about what your old girlfriend thinks about the drapes you and your wife picked out for the living room. Who cares, she’s crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/859 "2010-08-26T15:03:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > He showed a clip of ORiely ranting that if the Park 51 gets built somewhere in the world radical Muslims will celebrate and see it as a victory. We had a poster making the same argument. Every time I heard that I wondered how they’d know that, and more importantly WTF difference does it make? When discussing an issue of sensitivity{is it somehow hurtful to build it close to ground zero} vs religious tolerance and supporting the 1st amendment, on American soil with American citizens, why should we give any consideration to what Muslims who hate America might or might not think? That’s right. Let’s say there was some bigoted movement to keep Muslims out of public school, and there’s lawsuits, counter-lawsuits, debates, news coverage, and generally a big fooferrah over the issue, “Should Muslims be allowed in public school?” I have little doubt that some violent Islamic extremists would be prepared to declare victory if, indeed, Muslims were not excluded from public schools. I think that declaration of victory has more to do with “rubbing it in the faces” of those who are intolerant toward Muslims generally, rather than actually achieving any kind of victory for their extremist causes. Flash back to reality, and we know that Muslims attend public school routinely. Muslims vote, eat in public restaurants, pray, buy houses and TVs, hold jobs, and all sorts of other things just as any other American may do. Do we have Hamas, Al Qaeda, and whomever declaring victory because Muslims are able to do all this routine stuff? No, of course not. If all Americans had the simple common sense to understand that building a education/prayer center in a major American city is a routine thing that any other American group would be allowed to do without issue, then there’s be no claims from extremists groups that they want to declare victory on this issue. In other words, when Americans treat Americans like Americans, America wins. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/860 "2010-08-26T15:16:37Z")
Mosques building is undergoing trouble across America. From NYC to Mulfreesbororo, from California and Tenn. groups are protesting the building of Mosques. A Muslim cab driver was stabbed by a hater. Somewhere in America anti Muslim, right wingers are dancing in the streets. It is not difficult to get haters to rally . Palin and her tighty righties have no trouble exciting those who defend their hatred as a patriotic action. It is sick. Beck is having a very good day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=44)