# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/121 "2010-06-15T14:21:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Have you been taking your medication? Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/122 "2010-06-15T14:25:13Z")
Thought this one was in the Pit. Sorry, **Perciful**. And **tom.** ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/123 "2010-06-15T14:37:45Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > We already allow Sharia banking… What the hell? Is Sharia what.. “We The People” stand for? Look up Sharia and what it means to do Sharia banking. Okay. > [@](#): > > The basic principle of Islamic banking follows the laws of Sharia, known as Fiqh al-Muamalat (Islamic rules on transaction). The term “Islamic banking” is synonymous with “full-reserve banking” and “Sharia-compliant banking.” The most prominent feature of these laws is usury – the prohibition of paying or collecting interest on funds. The Islamic terminology for this is riba or ribaa. The Sharia also forbids engagement in investments that include financial unknowns such as buying and selling futures, as well as businesses that are haraam – dealing in products that are contrary to Islamic law and values such as alcohol, pork, gossip or pornography. These principles apply to all individuals, companies and governments. > > Banks that comply with Islamic law are forbidden to charge interest or late payment fees, which is also considered a type of riba. To minimize risk, banks will often require a large down payment on goods and property, or insist upon large collateral. [Cite here.](http://www.bankersonline.com/vendor_guru/edcomm/edcomm_mkt_100107.html) Why is this a problem, **Perciful**? Why aren’t banks allowed to offer whatever products they want? I have a problem with proposals like Sharia family court systems but I don’t see the issue here. Do you understand what this actually is? It’s not a separate monetary system or anything. If you want to strike terror into the heart of Americans, “their banks don’t charge interset or late fees!” is probably not going to do it. 😉 > [@Perciful](#): > > What ever happened to the separation of church and state? It doesn’t matter if your a Muslim? You know, there are _just a few_Christian private schools in this country. Jewish ones, too. Do you understand what the separation of church and state means? > [@](#): > > Not all Muslims are bad people, just the terrorist ones…? Erm, yes. Is this supposed to be a question? > [@](#): > > They have the money and our banks will work with them on their terms not on ours for their money. What the hell are you talking about? There are a few million Muslims in the U.S. Do you think they’re about to dominate the financial system? > [@](#): > > Why is our Country ignoring it’s own Constitution for Muslims in the US? This is not a Constitutional issue in any way. > [@](#): > > Not all of them are bad but they should be forced to live like Americans and bank like Americans if they want to live in our country. This makes no sense from a religious or financial standpoint. Why should all banks be forced to include interest rates and late payments? _By the way, Christianity opposes charging interest, too._ > [@](#): > > Sharia is not a religion it is a cult like Jihad is. Actually neither of these is a religion. Sharia is a system of Islamic law. Jihad, as I understand it, is supposed to be a struggle for righteousness but is frequently incorporated into terrorism. > [@](#): > > If you love the United States Of America it is time to take a stand. And what if we don’t? Or more importantly, what if we’d like to get our facts straight before getting all riled up about nothing in particular? > [@](#): > > You can see that even though Muslims only have .06 of our population now at the rate they have children it will grow very fast. US birth rates are down because we use birth control. Muslims don’t. It’s math. So what? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/124 "2010-06-15T15:17:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So what? Seriously. I’ve noticed that this obsession with the absolute disaster of whites becoming some kind of minority in this country is mostly held by people who are afraid that whites as a minority will be treated the way whites have historically treated minorities. Even acknowledging the complete unlikelihood of Muslims becoming a larger demographic group than European-descent Christians in the US, the answer to demographic decline is not paranoia and panic. It’s treating minorities the way we’d want them to treat us when/if we become the minority. If you aren’t a complete dick to someone, they’re generally not going to be a complete dick to you, given the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/125 "2010-06-15T15:25:04Z")
It’s worth noting that 34% of American Muslims _are_ white. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/126 "2010-06-15T15:29:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s worth noting that 34% of American Muslims _are_ white. Well, you’re talking reality. People who moan and cry about demographic decline in regard to Muslims don’t even know where reality is. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/127 "2010-06-15T16:40:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Seriously. I’ve noticed that this obsession with the absolute disaster of whites becoming some kind of minority in this country is mostly held by people who are afraid that whites as a minority will be treated the way whites have historically treated minorities. > > Even acknowledging the complete unlikelihood of Muslims becoming a larger demographic group than European-descent Christians in the US, the answer to demographic decline is not paranoia and panic. It’s treating minorities the way we’d want them to treat us when/if we become the minority. **If you aren’t a complete dick to someone, they’re generally not going to be a complete dick to you, given the opportunity**. Fairly naive. The first paragraph is true: I’ve even implied that in this thread. However, the basis of the fear is actual: it’s human nature. Revenge is merely a component of motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/128 "2010-06-15T16:42:03Z")
It _was_ human nature. In modern secular democracies, that stuff doesn’t really happen. We’re not Zimbabwe. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/129 "2010-06-15T16:43:38Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > US birth rates are down because we use birth control. Muslims don’t. It’s math. Uhhh, I am no expert but this is flat out wrong. I have been told many times by Muslim colleagues, even the very pious sort, that family planning and birth control are absolutely not a problem. I am sure someone can google us up some support. Bloody hell, that is one powerful set of paranoid lunacy as a post. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/130 "2010-06-15T17:16:00Z")
[Here you go](http://www.epigee.org/guide/islamic.html): > [@](#): > > Almost all forms of birth control are thought to be permissible in Islam. Those that are not accepted include surgical sterilization (unless it is medically necessary), as it is viewed as a form of castration as well as alters the body without need, and the withdrawal method, because it interrupts a woman’s pleasure and prevents a woman from conceiving if that is what she wants. However, the withdrawal method may be used if the woman agrees to it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/131 "2010-06-15T17:27:48Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > if you watch the series, “It’s The End Of The World As We Know It” on Utube.You can see that even though Muslims only have .06 of our population now at the rate they have children it will grow very fast. US birth rates are down because we use birth control. Muslims don’t. It’s math. The rate of Muslim population growth in the US fell significantly when you compare the 1990s and the 2000s. Just for the record. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/132 "2010-06-15T18:33:25Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Not all of them are bad but they should be forced to live like Americans and bank like Americans if they want to live in our country.. Are you going to try to force us Jews to “live like Americans” and eat pork, too? I should warn you, some other empires have tried that, and [it didn’t work out so well.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees) There are mutual funds with various social agendas, like investing in green technology or avoiding investing in companies involved with things like abortion. Are you going to ban those and make those people “invest like Americans”, too? People who are pro-environment and anti-abortion have committed acts of terrorism, too, you know. I’d like a cite on where, exactly, in the Constitution it says anything about how banks have to work. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/133 "2010-06-15T19:18:58Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Are you going to try to force us Jews to “live like Americans” and eat pork, too? The statement was certainly directed toward the legal system and the introduction of Sharia law. It’s silly to suggest dietary requirements.:dubious: > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > I’d like a cite on where, exactly, in the Constitution it says anything about how banks have to work. Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/134 "2010-06-15T19:26:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. In what possibly way does Sharia-based banking regulation conflict with banking regulations already enshrined by law? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/135 "2010-06-15T19:27:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The statement was certainly directed toward the legal system and the introduction of Sharia law. It’s silly to suggest dietary requirements.:dubious: Yet it’s not silly when people make the claims that Muslims are going to build their own schools in violation of church and state (😕) and other such silliness. In the Pit version of this thread, some folks were claiming that we’d all be in burqas. I don’t see this as any differently silly. > [@](#): > > Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. And funnily enough, nothing about the banking practices described above seems to conflict with our laws. Have you noticed any big regulatory push to change banking laws? Wouldn’t it be splashed all over the news by the Percivals and Valterons of the world? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/136 "2010-06-15T19:28:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The statement was certainly directed toward the legal system and the introduction of Sharia law. It’s silly to suggest dietary requirements.:dubious: My point is, we have our own system of laws that are not the same as American laws, too. The best-known of these are the dietary laws, but there are others as well. That doesn’t mean we’re trying to take over the US and establish it as a place where Jewish law is the law of the land. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/137 "2010-06-15T19:41:16Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > They have the money and our banks will work with them on their terms not on ours for their money. Why is our Country ignoring it’s own Constitution for Muslims in the US? Not all of them are bad but they should be forced to live like Americans and bank like Americans if they want to live in our country. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > > I’d like a cite on where, exactly, in the Constitution it says anything about how banks have to work. > > Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. Cite? No. Relevance? That is surely needed. Perciful made a wild claim that linked Islamic banking practices to ignoring the Constitution. Unless you have evidence that the banking practices are in violation of the Constitution, her wild claim and your odd defence are both silly. You are correct, (without it being much of a point), that banking regulations are enshrined in law. How a bank lawfully operating, (quite obviously following those laws in that they are not being closed down by any Federal or state regulatory agency), is in any conflict with the Constitution is the question that you and Perciful need to answer unless you are each simply throwing mud at a wall, hoping some of it sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/138 "2010-06-15T19:41:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The statement was certainly directed toward the legal system and the introduction of Sharia law. It’s silly to suggest dietary requirements.:dubious: > > Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. If you re-read **Perciful** ’s post, she was talking about “sharia banking”- which is banking done in accordance with Islamic principles. It does not require any alteration of the legal system or the banking system. They’re not trying to stop anyone else from charging interest. It’s a type of banking that is legal on its own and also has some extra restrictions that comply with Islamic rules. They don’t feel the banks are moral, so they bank their own way. They don’t want to invest in certain companies, either - but lots of people take that into account when they’re investing.This seems like a perfectly acceptable free market solution. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/139 "2010-06-15T19:46:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cite? No. > Relevance? That is surely needed. Perciful made a wild claim that linked Islamic banking practices to ignoring the Constitution. Unless you have evidence that the banking practices are in violation of the Constitution, her wild claim and your odd defence are both silly. > > You are correct, (without it being much of a point), that banking regulations are enshrined in law. How a bank lawfully operating, (quite obviously following those laws in that they are not being closed down by any Federal or state regulatory agency), is in any conflict with the Constitution is the question that you and Perciful need to answer unless you are each simply throwing mud at a wall, hoping some of it sticks. If you operate a monetary banking exchange then it falls under banking rules. The banking system exists under the umbrella of constitutional law. To say banks are a function of the constitution is a restatement of their existence under the legal constraints allowed by it. Maybe I’m missing something in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/140 "2010-06-15T19:57:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The statement was certainly directed toward the legal system and the introduction of Sharia law. It’s silly to suggest dietary requirements.:dubious: > > Banking regulations are well established and regulated by law. No cite is needed. > [@Magiver](#): > > If you operate a monetary banking exchange then it falls under banking rules. The banking system exists under the umbrella of constitutional law. To say banks are a function of the constitution is a restatement of their existence under the legal constraints allowed by it. > > Maybe I’m missing something in this conversation. I would suggest that you’re missing an understanding of the subject. UK has Sharia banks, nothing in law - other than some tax oriented adjustments of the rules on sale-lease backs if I understand correctly - needed to be changed. Charging interest (well explicit interest) on a finance deal has nothing constitutional about it at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=8)