# Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432 "2010-05-14T14:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/161 "2010-06-16T09:23:59Z")
I think the coolest thing would be for a new high-rise to be built on the site of WTC and that every religion and denomination represented in the United States, heck, in the _world_, have a chapel (or whatever the particular faith’s equivalent terminology is) in the new building. That would show people like the bigots who brought down the WTC that part of our strength is our tolerance. The protests against having a mosque are merely showing that some are as intolerant as said bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/162 "2010-06-16T12:44:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Now I have to soak my eyes and ears in bleach. She mixes fact and fiction and hatred so thoroughly that it is not really possible to take apart her “presentation.” Suffice it to say that even the stuff she gets correct she mixes up with stuff that is nothing more than distorted hatred. > > . Distorted hatred? You mean curiosity of what is going on? I don’t hate Sharia but I don’t want it at my bank. It goes against our own banking system and laws so it is wrong. Tom, I can get more US bankers to explain that we are being taken to the cleaners but it seems you just want to argue? She lays it out simply. There are other ways to explain it but it is very complicated. Basically, you are issuing a loan to someone written in Arabic that you can’t and don’t understand that is going into terrorism? What don’t we get? Joy knows banking laws inside and out and I believe her and others that say this type of banking hurts our country. Let’s not be blind sighted by worrying about Sharia being discriminated against. In Sharia we bend to their whims and they make money by taking power away from us. 1. A Sharia mortgage or credit card or loan is handled not by us but by their Iranian 'money changers". They say it is because of their religious beliefs the banks have to be Sharia tolerant. The contract is not written in English and can only be interpreted through a Sharia scholar. Right there is the first banking violation. 2. No interest. Well there is interest but their religion forbids us to call it that. They call it charity but it is not charity because it goes right back to them. They also don’t assume any risk. Pretty good for them! 3. Why are we doing business with terrorists? It makes us beholden to them. It gives them power to build schools and buy up our property so they can eventually take us over. This reminds me of my first and only marriage. His money was his money and my money was his money. Sharia right now is trying to buy up some of our failing banks. If they do we will have to bank Iranian and get no interest on our money and obey their laws in US Sharia banks, not our own. It is letting the wolf into the hen house. The US is in a weak financial position right now with Obama and the billions of dollars worth of Oil money looks good to banks. Good enough to bend our own banking rules to suit them? but…Our ways are not their ways. We try and make money from interest to better ourselves. In Iranian banking we cannot make a dime and we also give away our power to them! Islamic scholars are not stupid and we may be over looking the fact that this Sharia banking is not in our countries “best interest”… Bad pun 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/163 "2010-06-16T12:52:45Z")
Do business with terrorists? Clarify something for me, please, **Perciful**. Do you believe that all Muslims are terrorists? Do you believe that all Muslim institutions that they use in their own communities are terrorist fronts? And please look up “xenophobia” in the dictionary. You might want to check if your photo is there. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/164 "2010-06-16T12:53:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I think the coolest thing would be for a new high-rise to be built on the site of WTC and that every religion and denomination represented in the United States, heck, in the _world_, have a chapel (or whatever the particular faith’s equivalent terminology is) in the new building. That would show people like the bigots who brought down the WTC that part of our strength is our tolerance. The protests against having a mosque are merely showing that some are as intolerant as said bigots. I am all for a multi religion center as long as it is owned by our country and is for this country and the benefit of all Americans. We are a diverse nation and our own country should build a multicultural center on Ground Zero where so many people died at the hands of Islamic terrorists. We have it backwards. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/165 "2010-06-16T12:56:38Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I am all for a multi religion center as long as it is owned by our country and is for this country and the benefit of all Americans. We are a diverse nation and our own country should build a multicultural center on Ground Zero where so many people died at the hands of Islamic terrorists. > > We have it backwards. Are you claiming that the Muslim congregation that’s building the mosque/community center in question is not American? How long does someone need to live here before they’re considered American? Because that imam has been in NYC since at least 1983, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/166 "2010-06-16T13:34:57Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I am all for a multi religion center as long as it is owned by our country and is for this country and the benefit of all Americans. We are a diverse nation and our own country should build a multicultural center on Ground Zero where so many people died at the hands of Islamic terrorists. > > We have it backwards. So what you’re saying is, no churches should be built near WTC site either, only “multireligion centers”? I get it – you think Churches are offensive to diversity because they don’t benefit all Americans! Got it. You wanna pull down St. Paul’s Chapel or Trinity Church while you’re at it? Having a religious structure that doesn’t benefit all americans so close to WTC site is offensive to you, after all. There a synogogue about a block away from WTC site too… that’s gonna have to go under the new **Perciful** regime. It is, after all, totally offensive in that primarily Jews engage in prayer there. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/167 "2010-06-16T13:40:49Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Distorted hatred? You mean curiosity of what is going on? I don’t hate Sharia but I don’t want it at my bank. It goes against our own banking system and laws so it is wrong. No, it doesn’t. It’s different than what you are used to, but there’s nothing illegal about it. You have every right to no wish to do business with any bank you dislike, but you are repeatedly incorrect when you say it is “against our own banking system and laws”. Can you point to a single law it violates? > [@](#): > > What don’t we get? Joy knows banking laws inside and out and I believe her and others that say this type of banking hurts our country. Let’s not be blind sighted by worrying about Sharia being discriminated against. In Sharia we bend to their whims and they make money by taking power away from us. In another thread you talk about questioning authority, but you don’t seem willing to do so. You take Joy’s word for it but are unwilling to examine all the evidence people here and other bankers present that shows that she’s either incorrect or you’re interpreting what she says incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/168 "2010-06-16T13:45:58Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Distorted hatred? You mean curiosity of what is going on? I don’t hate Sharia but I don’t want it at my bank. It goes against our own banking system and laws so it is wrong. Pretty much all business goes against your own banking system and laws. Whenever you sign a contract, you’re entering into some yet more strict system of additional rules and controls that goes against your banking system - and more than that, really. The difference, I suppose, is in willingness. If you were forced to do business under Sharia conditions, then I too would have an issue. The mere existence of Sharia for those who want to work under it doesn’t strike me as an issue, no more than that I may sign an NDA to not talk about work i’m doing works against my freedom of speech. If I am able to sign a contract in Arabic, or French, or whatever language, so long as I am not forced to do so, what’s the problem? You act as if people are having Sharia banking regulations forced upon them, people being sat down with a complicated document in a language they don’t know and made to sign. It is no violation to have an option avaliable but unrequired - if anything, I would argue that restricting business dealings to pre-government approved formulations would be a greater issue. We wouldn’t get any kind of business done at all. Funding terrorism, I would have thought, is presumably already against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/169 "2010-06-16T13:53:37Z")
This [article](http://www.muslimpolitics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82:why-has-britains-islamic-finance-industry-flopped&catid=1:latest-articles&Itemid=50) from a UK muslim blogger notes that the Islamic Finance sector (in the UK at least) has been a complete flop since it was launched in 2004. The author puts in down to poor marketing - essentially islamic banking was promoted at devout muslims, and focused on saving souls rather than offering decent products and quality service (like any other institution). The key point is that “When it comes to questions of religion, most Muslims will lie and pretend to be far more devout than they are in reality”… i.e. a market researcher asks whether a muslim-specific banking service is needed, and people say yes, but in reality it’s easier to pop across the road during lunch hour and visit a branch of LloydsTSB. I guess the relevance to this discussion is that here in the UK there isn’t some insidious campaign to force all banks etc. to become sharia compliant - in contrast the products have been available for a few years now and no-one wants them, to the extent that most have been mothballed. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/170 "2010-06-16T14:10:53Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The key point is that “When it comes to questions of religion, most Muslims will lie and pretend to be far more devout than they are in reality”… i.e. a market researcher asks whether a muslim-specific banking service is needed, and people say yes, but in reality it’s easier to pop across the road during lunch hour and visit a branch of LloydsTSB. > > I guess the relevance to this discussion is that here in the UK there isn’t some insidious campaign to force all banks etc. to become sharia compliant - in contrast the products have been available for a few years now and no-one wants them, to the extent that most have been mothballed. This is similar to the Christian convenience store that went bankrupt recently. They made a big deal about not selling porn, booze, cigarettes, etc, all those things that evangelicals and fundamentalists say they would rather their stores not sell. But nobody bought anything there. It was in an inconvenient location, the prices were higher, and, frankly, nobody really meant it when they said they wanted stores that didn’t sell that stuff. Just goes to show that the phenomenon is universal, and Muslims just aren’t that different from Christians in general. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/171 "2010-06-16T14:18:04Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > I guess the relevance to this discussion is that here in the UK there isn’t some insidious campaign to force all banks etc. to become sharia compliant - in contrast the products have been available for a few years now and no-one wants them, to the extent that most have been mothballed. There isn’t one here, either. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/172 "2010-06-16T14:39:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There isn’t one here, either. Of course, but it’s always good to get some solid metrics in play 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/173 "2010-06-16T14:41:08Z")
Well, just to keep things fair, I’m opening an atheist bank which only publishes loan agreements in Esperanto. _Luton!_ ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/174 "2010-06-16T14:48:21Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > This [article](http://www.muslimpolitics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82:why-has-britains-islamic-finance-industry-flopped&catid=1:latest-articles&Itemid=50) from a UK muslim blogger notes that the Islamic Finance sector (in the UK at least) has been a complete flop since it was launched in 2004. It doesn’t seem to be a complete flop, just not the crazy wild success the promoters were selling… > [@](#): > > The author puts in down to poor marketing - essentially islamic banking was promoted at devout muslims, and focused on saving souls rather than offering decent products and quality service (like any other institution). That’s silly, HSBC is in the game, and HSBC knows banking mate. That is not a colourable argument. It’s simply more expensive product from what I read. The legal contortions etc end up making their products for the same term more expensive. It’s a luxury good, like any sort of “Green” or “Socially Conscious” blither they sell. There is a small part of the population that is really willing to pay above the going rate, and a very much larger part that are in fact posing wankers that say it but don’t plump for it in the end. Bloody human nature in the end. > [@](#): > > The key point is that “When it comes to questions of religion, most Muslims will lie and pretend to be far more devout than they are in reality”… Lie? That’s not a lie, that’s just your average wanker. I’m sure they really believe it… until they have to pay 1% more on that home loan or walk an extra 10 metres to a branch. > [@](#): > > I guess the relevance to this discussion is that here in the UK there isn’t some insidious campaign to force all banks etc. to become sharia compliant - in contrast the products have been available for a few years now and no-one wants them, to the extent that most have been mothballed. Quite, there’s absolutely no rational reason to be whinging on in fear over this. It’s banal and a niche product. Like the stupid marketing gits that total up the number of Muslims in UK and then extrapolate for a Halal market for specific Halal products (when in fact Halal observance is a bit hit and miss aside from avoiding pork, going by my personal observations). > [@jayjay](#): > > Just goes to show that the phenomenon is universal, and Muslims just aren’t that different from Christians in general. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/175 "2010-06-16T14:50:17Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Distorted hatred? You mean curiosity of what is going on? I don’t hate Sharia but I don’t want it at my bank. It goes against our own banking system and laws so it is wrong. You don’t even fucking have a clue what Sharia is, never mind your own bloody banking system. It doesn’t “go against” anything. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/176 "2010-06-16T15:14:20Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Distorted hatred? You mean curiosity of what is going on? You weren’t curious about what is going on. (You said “What the hell is that?” but I don’t think that counts as curiosity.) You posted a bunch of misinformation about sharia banking being unconstitutional, which it isn’t; said Muslims are outbreeding “us” because they’re opposed to birth control (they aren’t); and generally spouted a lot of other nonsense. > [@](#): > > I don’t hate Sharia but I don’t want it at my bank. I expect that isn’t going to be a problem for you. It’s not like Islamic banks are dominating the U.S. financial system. Although I will remind you again that Christians are _also_ opposed to charging interest. > [@](#): > > It goes against our own banking system and laws so it is wrong. Again, it does not. > [@](#): > > Tom, I can get more US bankers to explain that we are being taken to the cleaners but it seems you just want to argue? You’re posting in a forum called Great Debates. If you don’t want to argue, you are probably in the wrong place. That said, it looks like most of what you have been saying is completely wrong. Rather than complain that mean old **tomndebb** is being argumentative, learn something. I think we all know there are people who are funneling money to terrorists, but that’s not a feature of this kind of banking. They can do it without that. And nobody has proposed forcing _you_ to use a sharia bank, either, although as I’ve pointed out I believe that would be in line with your own religious views. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/177 "2010-06-16T15:42:54Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The key point is that “When it comes to questions of religion, most Muslims will lie and pretend to be far more devout than they are in reality”… i.e. a market researcher asks whether a muslim-specific banking service is needed, and people say yes, but in reality it’s easier to pop across the road during lunch hour and visit a branch of LloydsTSB. Wait, you’re saying Muslims are more likely to lie that they’re MORE religious than they really are for the sake of appearances? That’s almost exactly the opposite of what some people have been saying in this thread and elsewhere. How could this be? _innocent look_ > [@jayjay](#): > > This is similar to the Christian convenience store that went bankrupt recently. They made a big deal about not selling porn, booze, cigarettes, etc, all those things that evangelicals and fundamentalists say they would rather their stores not sell. But nobody bought anything there. It was in an inconvenient location, the prices were higher, and, frankly, nobody really meant it when they said they wanted stores that didn’t sell that stuff. “Why do you always invite two Baptists to go fishing with you?” “Because if you invite one, he’ll drink all your beer.” ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/178 "2010-06-16T15:54:09Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Wait, you’re saying Muslims are more likely to lie that they’re MORE religious than they really are for the sake of appearances? > > That’s almost exactly the opposite of what some people have been saying in this thread and elsewhere. How could this be? _innocent look_ Well, I’m not saying anything… I’m quoting a muslim blogger who may well be talking out of his arse. 😉 But if you’re asking whether it’s the case that not all muslims are foaming radicals but sometimes go through the motions in order not to disappoint grandma, then I’d tend to agree. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/179 "2010-06-16T16:35:40Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > The key point is that “When it comes to questions of religion, most Muslims will lie and pretend to be far more devout than they are in reality”… i.e. a market researcher asks whether a muslim-specific banking service is needed, and people say yes, but in reality it’s easier to pop across the road during lunch hour and visit a branch of LloydsTSB. This confused me because I wanted it to stand for “Lloyds - The Sharia Bank”. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432/180 "2010-06-16T17:54:23Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Well, I’m not saying anything… I’m quoting a muslim blogger who may well be talking out of his arse. 😉 > > But if you’re asking whether it’s the case that not all muslims are foaming radicals but sometimes go through the motions in order not to disappoint grandma, then I’d tend to agree. 🙂 Yeah, the latter. 😃 Especially with all the bull about “Muslims are allowed to lie to help them take over” that goes flying in some circles (and the pit). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mosque-to-be-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero/539432.md?page=10)