# Most Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062 "2009-07-24T00:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/21 "2009-07-26T07:09:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The statement is techncally true, although it conveys an erroneous impression of what happened. > > Prior to the advent of European and Arabian slavers in sub-Saharan Africa, Africans behaved the same way that Europeans, Asians, and (pre-Columbian) Americans behaved. Individual tribes or nations would get into a war over the usual quests for power or resources and would capture their hostile neighbors during the conflict. Those captives would then be brought back to provide labor to make up for the labor lost with the deaths of fighters from the capturing group. > > However, once Arabs and Europeans introduced chattel slavery to Africa, the new (to the region) notion of capturing and selling slaves created a new market for a new industry and led to wars and raids being initiated for the purpose of gathering slaves for sales. Those Africans who engaged in slave-catching were responding to a new phenomenon that had been created by outsiders, then embraced by locals. tomndebb, do you have any kind of citation that Africans didn’t have chattel slaves before Arabs and Europeans? I find the following (about modern times): > [@](#): > > Chattel slavery is typically racially-based; in the North African country of Mauritania, for example, black Africans serve the lighter-skinned Arab-Berber communities. Chattel slaves are owned and traded, not just forced labor. I find it very difficult to believe that there was no chattel slavery until Europeans entered the picture. In fact, I seem to recall some rumors in a book of myths called “The Bible” or something like that, about the Jews being chattel slaves in Egypt, for example … The Encarta Encyclopedia says: > [@](#): > > Slavery existed in some of Africa’s earliest organized societies. More than 3,500 years ago, ancient Egyptians raided neighboring societies for slaves, and the buying and selling of slaves were regular activities in cities along the Nile River. However, whereas the Egyptians left behind written records of their activities, most other early African states and societies did not. Therefore, our understanding of most early African practices of slavery is based on much more recent observations of African traditions regarding slavery and kinship and on oral histories.. Chattel slavery … in other words: > [@](#): > > For example, Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each: > > “Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish.” Chattel slaves, bought and sold … damn those sneaky Europeans, conning the ancient Egyptians into trading chattel slaves … However, I’m sure you’ll come back and find some way to blame it on Europeans and Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/22 "2009-07-26T08:55:13Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I am unaware of prisoners taken in European war since the modern period (let’s say the Thirty Years War) being held as slaves. During the Russian invasion of Finland in the Great Northern War (1700 - 1721) some 20 000 Finnish Ostrobothnian prisoners of war were sold by Russian officers as slaves, most transported to St. Petersburg for construction work. Just one tenth returned after several years or decades of slave labor. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/23 "2009-07-27T15:02:16Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Japan did it – there were American POW’s laboring in Hiroshima who were killed when the atomic bomb was dropped there. > > Heck, America did it, sort-of. I had relatives out in farm country who had a German POW from a POW camp as a farm laborer during WWII. He wasn’t treated like a slave – he basically replaced their hired man, lived in the same room as he had, ate meals with the family, etc. – but then he didn’t get paid for his labor, either. The [Geneva Convention of 1929](http://www.icrc.org/IHL.NSF/FULL/305?OpenDocument) allowed belligerents to require work of POWs of less than officer rank (see section III). They were supposed to get paid though, for work that wasn’t related to the upkeep of their camp. Also, no work directly towards the war effort, no dangerous work, work hours to be limited to those of the civilian population, etc. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/24 "2009-07-28T16:57:55Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Chattel slaves, bought and sold … damn those sneaky Europeans, conning the ancient Egyptians into trading chattel slaves … What part of Egypt is sub-Saharan? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/25 "2009-07-28T18:50:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The statement is techncally true, although it conveys an erroneous impression of what happened. > > Prior to the advent of European and Arabian slavers in sub-Saharan Africa, Africans behaved the same way that Europeans, Asians, and (pre-Columbian) Americans behaved. Individual tribes or nations would get into a war over the usual quests for power or resources and would capture their hostile neighbors during the conflict. Those captives would then be brought back to provide labor to make up for the labor lost with the deaths of fighters from the capturing group. > > However, once Arabs and Europeans introduced chattel slavery to Africa, the new (to the region) notion of capturing and selling slaves created a new market for a new industry and led to wars and raids being initiated for the purpose of gathering slaves for sales. Those Africans who engaged in slave-catching were responding to a new phenomenon that had been created by outsiders, then embraced by locals. I don’t dispute this explination, however I do find it used all to often as a convenient excuse to excuse the Africans from having any part of it. Whether they thought it up or not, isn’t the point, the point is they actively participated in the event. You could say the same about guns. Africans had a different model of warfare till they got guns. Then all of a sudden they started thinking like Europeans and slaughtering their own people. You could say the same thing about corruption. Since independence outside of one or two states, all African nations are massively corrupt. I don’t think that corruption is historically part of the African ethic (just my opinion) but it doesn’t matter where they got the idea, they still are employing that idea with excellent efficency. The problem when you have questions like these is the old “Blame game.” Blacks don’t like to admit they had a hand in the creatig the slavery they decry. Though it’s a different question, one could even argue without Africans to capture other Africans the slave trade would’ve been much more limited or different. (Perhaps they would’ve used breeding farms instead) Whatever you think of the subject think of it like this: Adolf Hitler didn’t succeed in killing six million Jews because HE, or HE and A BUNCH OF HIS BUDDIES wanted them dead. He succeeded because the attitude of his fellow Germans and other Europeans was “Well I don’t agree with killing Jews but if Hitler’s gonna do it, why don’t I look over there.” I read the autobiography of Hitler’s secretary, who was with him in the buker where he died and she was 19 years old. When she was asked, if she knew what was going on, in terms of the death camps and such, she said “No, I had no idea, but then again, if I had bothered to look, I certainly would’ve seen it.” That is probably the most telling statement ever when you’re dealing with questions like this. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/26 "2009-07-28T21:06:59Z")
The bolding/underlining all mine > [@Markxxx](#): > > I don’t dispute this explination, however I do find it used all to often as a convenient excuse to excuse **the Africans** from having any part of it. > > Whether they thought it up or not, isn’t the point, the point is they actively participated in the event. > > You could say the same about guns. Africans had a different model of warfare till they got guns. Then all of a sudden they started thinking like Europeans **and slaughtering their own people**. > > You could say the same thing about corruption. Since independence outside of one or two states, **all African nations are massively corrupt**. I don’t think that corruption is historically part of **the African ethic** (just my opinion)but it doesn’t matter where they got the idea, they still are employing that idea with excellent efficency. > > The problem when you have questions like these is the old “Blame game.” **Blacks don’t like to admit they had a hand in the creatig the slavery they decry.** Though it’s a different question, one could even argue **without Africans to capture other Africans** the slave trade would’ve been much more limited or different. (Perhaps they would’ve used breeding farms instead) Here is post #3 of this thread. > [@UncleBill](#): > > That statement makes a whole lot more sense once one stops considering Africa as a homogeneous ethnic and political entity. It is a large land mass. With lots of very different peoples. I really think that we westerners just might be totally incapable of thinking of Africa as a multi-political, multi-linguistical, multi-cultural, multi-historical, multi-religious, multi-ethnic place. If people just took five seconds to think about the multidimensional facets of this block of land we collectively refer to as “Africa” then half of their questions would not even need to be asked. I mean why did France and England fight against each other so many times throughout their history? **Didn’t they know that they were both white?!** I swear we are just incapable of thinking of Africa as anything, but a homogeneous block where “the blacks” live. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/27 "2009-07-29T05:08:30Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I really think that we westerners just might be totally incapable of thinking of Africa as a multi-political, multi-linguistical, multi-cultural, multi-historical, multi-religious, multi-ethnic place. … I swear we are just incapable of thinking of Africa as anything, but a homogeneous block where “the blacks” live. I’ve seen US Doper’s post questions of the “Do people in Europe do X?” variety which equally manage to lump together a broad range of cultures, histories, languages, attitudes, etc. There may be other reasons for this, but distance and familiarity play a part; the further away (and less familiar) an area is the more we seem to see it as homogeneous (and I’m completely failing to find the cite I recall for this). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/28 "2009-07-29T06:07:24Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > I’ve seen US Doper’s post questions of the “Do people in Europe do X?” variety which equally manage to lump together a broad range of cultures, histories, languages, attitudes, etc. There may be other reasons for this, but distance and familiarity play a part; the further away (and less familiar) an area is the more we seem to see it as homogeneous (and I’m completely failing to find the cite I recall for this). Well, except we get dozens of threads with things like “Christians do xxxx” (hate gays, whatever) as if Christianity were a homogeneous whole. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/29 "2009-07-29T07:22:14Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > What part of Egypt is sub-Saharan? The place where they got their slaves. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/30 "2009-07-29T16:47:25Z")
> [@intention](#): > > The place where they got their slaves. Sub-Sahara Africa is “The place where they got their slaves.” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/31 "2009-07-29T17:11:32Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > What part of Egypt is sub-Saharan? If race is what you are asking about (I’m assuming it is), here are some previous threads dealing with ancient Egypt and race that I was able to find: [Cleopatra was black/white???](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510497) [What Ethnicity were the Ancient Egyptians?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=324044) [Who was Tutankhamun?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321511) ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/32 "2009-07-29T18:13:23Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Sub-Sahara Africa is “The place where they got their slaves.” Cite? What, you don’t think the Egyptians had [black slaves](http://reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/pics/african_slaves.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/33 "2009-07-29T18:19:03Z")
> [@intention](#): > > What, you don’t think the Egyptians had [black slaves](http://reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/pics/african_slaves.jpg)? Hardly a cite for where the slaves were from. They were quite possibly from Nubia, which is not sub-Saharan. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/34 "2009-07-29T18:38:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Hardly a cite for where the slaves were from. They were quite possibly from Nubia, which is not sub-Saharan. Parts of Nubia were sub-Saharan. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/35 "2009-07-29T19:10:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Parts of Nubia were sub-Saharan. But most was not. My point was that you can’t tell the slaves were sub-Saharan merely from skin color. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/36 "2009-07-29T19:29:04Z")
Fight my ignorance on this one … were there populations of black people historically living north of the Sahara? I have always believed there were not … but I’ve been wrong more than once. In fact, more than twice … ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/37 "2009-07-29T20:49:22Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Fight my ignorance on this one … were there populations of black people historically living north of the Sahara? I have always believed there were not … but I’ve been wrong more than once. In fact, more than twice … Not north of the Sahara, but within the latitudes encompassed by the Sahara, rather than sub-Saharan. [Mauritanians](http://daysofarabianlives.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mauritanian-women-wait-to-001.jpg) [Nubians](http://www.evcal.org/sitebuilder/images/Aswan541Nubians-375x275.jpg) at Aswan in southern Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062/38 "2009-07-30T07:42:47Z")
Traditional slavery in Africa was (and still is) more like the ancient Roman concept of slaves. In many ways, it resembles a caste system. People are born into certain jobs, and those jobs may indeed be jobs serving certain people. But it’s not exactly like someone legally owning another human being. For example, a traditional slave may need to ask for approval to get married. But they would not be bred together like animals, as people sometimes were during the trans-Atlantic slave trade. It’s bad and it is still a major problem in some areas (I’ve personally hung out with slaves in Mali) but it’s not the same thing as systematic chattel slavery where the slaves are treated as pure commodities. Traditional slaves are still allowed to have fairly normal families, some degree of self-determinism, etc. Women, of course, have been treated as chattel my most societies through most of history. The line between “marriage” and “slavery” can be iffy in lots of cases. A final word, in modern times there are plenty of other forms of slavery thriving in Africa (and other places.) From forced marriages, forced child labor on a large and small scale, religious slavery, forced prostitution, etc. there are no shortage of human trafficking issues to get worked up about. > [@AK84](#): > > There were several competing empires on the West Coast of Africa at about the same time as the slave trade took off (could people actually stop saying “warring tribes”, W Africa was extremely organised, settled, civilised and had advanced political entities. Thanks for pointing this out. During this time period (and back into Medieval times), much of West Africa resembled feudal Europe, with powerful empires, transcontinental trade, complex religions, huge cities, centers of learning, etc. It no more resembled a bunch of “warring tribes” than Germany did during the same time period. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/most-africans-were-sold-into-slavery-by-other-africans/504062.md?page=1)